Ethics without God?

Question

Let us imagine a particular person. And just for fun let's call her Mary. Now Mary has never had religion. By this Christian definition Mary is without morals of any kind. Along comes a missionary and tells Mary all about Jesus. He tells bible stories that illustrate what wonderful, upright examples they set for sinful mankind. He tells about the ten commandments and how all morals come from the deity.

Here is the quandary:

How is Mary, whom we agree has no morals, able to judge if this deity is a moral god? We might observe that one should not worship a god unless that god is worthy of worship. Surely, one would not love a god unless that god was worthy of love.

In other words, Mary must first make an independent judgment -- based upon Madalyn's own godless moral values, that God is worthy of love and worship.

Answer 1

First mary shoudl ask that person to prove he never lied in his life ( if he lied once who knows may be he is lying now)
Second Mary should ask same person for 10 commandments ( Most Christians don't know them)
3. She should ask who discover Jesus empty tomb and see 4 different answers from 4 gospels.
4. She should ask the person who is trying to convert her did really sale his house since "Jesus told to folloow him they must sell thier houses and help poor."
5. Then she should ask how much money will this membership cost.
6. If she is in US than she should not give any money away since it's " In god we trust" Why would Mary want to give away GOD's trusties. Never give away your trust in GOD
7. She should ask are tehre any other funny books by other religions that she should know of?
ANd if person will respond not then she should ask how does he knows that what he knows is true. ( we know that is true coz bible says so, but for poor mary she did not read the bible yet so she has to belive who ever bothers her )
8. She should ask the same person for his protection in case she will get raped. Coz by accident she heard somewhere ""If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." (Deuteronomy)"
9. She should tell the sales person that she commit so many crimes and would like to have an indulgence and even few extra for futre crimes.

And after all those questions she can make intelegent decision based on Christian sales person idea.
Therefore all morality comes from GOD and his sells ppl.

Answer 2

You have assumed that we agree that Mary has no morals. This is not a reasonable assumption.

Morals are simply defined as what an individual believes to be right and wrong. Every person, whether they are Christian or not, has some standard as to what is right and wrong. For people who have a religious belief, 'wrong' is attributed to that which the religion says is wrong. For those that don't, 'wrong' is usually some standard by which they believe produces a better world around them.

For instance, most people, religious or otherwise, would consider it 'wrong' to steal candy from little kids, or steal purses from old ladies. It doesn't take an application of Christianity to consider these things wrong.

However, people do things they consider 'wrong' all the time, for various reasons. For Christians, they call these things 'sin' (sin being the latin word for 'without', as in 'action done without God'). While non-religious people might not call it sin, they sometimes violate their own moral standards as well.

Furthermore, moral standards change in certain situations. For example, the Bible says 'thou shalt not kill', and then goes on to celebrate the shepherd boy David for killing Goliath. In fact, this is presumably done with the approval and help of God. What the Bible doesn't point out is why it is immoral to kill generally, but it is a good thing that David kills Goliath. Supposedly, the circumstances surrounding the killing of Goliath make it 'obvious' to the reader's 'morality' that killing someone who is an 'enemy' is morally acceptable. So where does that lead? Is it now 'moral' for Laci Peterson's family to kill Scott Peterson because he killed their daughter and is now an 'enemy'? How about all the so-called 'honor killings' in the Islamic world? I wouldn't say these things are 'right'....but that is my own code of morality.

Lets look at 'thou shalt not kill', with some examples

David killing Goliath - Good
Scott Peterson killing his wife - Bad

US warplanes killing Abu Musab al-Zarqawi - Good
US warplanes killing a young child in the airstrike that killed Abu Musab al-Zarqawi - Bad

The 'morality' of the airstrike which will kill a terrorist and also kill a young child - many would consider this 'Good'
The 'morality' of the airstrike which will kill a terrorist and also kill an American young child being held as a hostage - many Americans would consider this 'Bad'

People decide 'morality' (good versus evil) for themselves, even within the framework of Christianity (although Christians are far more likely to find a preacher to decide for them and tell them an 'interpretation of scripture' than they are to make up their own minds). I don't think morality is absolute, which you can probably tell from my analysis of the meaning of 'thou shalt not kill'.

Answer 3

You're basing your supposition on the preface that religion defines morality. It doesn't, at least not necessarily. While religion can provide a structured outline for what a particular group of people considers morality, it does not, and should not, say that it is the only way to be moral.

While you have expressed a Christian point of view here, keep in mind that every religion around the world has their own set of tenants and strictures. While many of them overlap, creating a sort of unified world view of what is "right," there are areas where they diverge. This doesn't make, by way of example, a Buddhist any less moral then a Christian

I think the clearest definition of 'moral' in this case is 'conforming to standards of what is right or just behavior.' (from dictionary.com). Every person on the face of the planet, whethere religious or not, has their own set of moral guidelines that guide them to make decisions that they believe are right or just. Those that prescribe to a particular faith would have a more unified world view, then a random group of people thrown together.

Mary's tribe would surely have their own standards of what constitutes right and wrong. To assume less is to assume those who have not been exposed to Christianity are animals, or at the very least sub-human

In your above example, Mary has been presented with a set of facts. The clearest, easiest, and most solid way to make any decision, moral or otherwise, is to investigate said facts. To ask questions. Are we assuming your Mary can read? If so, let's say she goes back to the bible, reads further, and comes to believe that the god presented to her in these stories, is good and just and loving. Then, based on her morals, and not her religious convictions, she can choose to embrace him based on the information presented.

But the two questions that this question should lead you to are;

1. How does the Chrisitan god handle those who have never been exposed to his message? Are they automatically damned for their ignorance? Does that sound like the act of a loving, caring god?

2. How are any of us, who were raised Christian, any more able to make clear definitions on the intention of this mysterious god then those who were just exposed to his message?

Answer 4

Wait - now why does she have no morals? I do not agree that "Mary" has no morals because she has never known religion. She may have morals but not know them to be dictated by a God or higher power.

Craziness is universal isn't it? All cultures and religions can identify someone who is "crazy"...and many would think someone who lacks morals is some type of crazy - or mentally ill in some way. Like in our culture, a serial killer is recognized by virtually everyone as someone who is mentally ill - someone who lacks that little sensor that tells them not to harm another. I would imagine, in whatever culture or society that "Mary" lives in, there is some sort of standard moral system. Another universal idea is "good" and "evil"...nearly every society, culture, religion recognizes this in some way. I would think, that this idea of morality is as much of an instinct to humans as it is for birds to fly south for the winter. What is socially acceptable may differ from community to community, but still, humans wouldn't be successful on Earth without some morality...if we weren't born with something inside us, that instint to help each other rather than kill each other. Yes people still steal and kill, but the majority don't go knocking off whomever they please.

In any case, in my opinion the whole experience is about discovering God. I don't believe God necessarily has to be found within the man made structure of Christianity, but God wants us to find him, no matter what path we choose...and I believe that commandments and rules do help us to find God. Someone not clouded with the material physical world would be able to find God, or happiness that comes from knowing God.

Answer 5

We do not agree that Mary has no morals. We are all made in the image of God. The tree that Adam and Eve at of was the tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil. Why do you say we agree that without God Mary has no morals? In the book of Romans Paul says that those who do not have the law of God are a law unto themselves, their consciounces either condemning or defending them. We all have an inner conscious that tells us basic differences between right and wrong, and many non-religious people do an excellent job in the area of ethics and morality and have strong convictions.

Christianity is not about teaching people the differnce between right and wrong. It is assumed that they know. That's why they are called to confess and repent. It is by this acknowledgement of right and wrong that we realize we need to be reconciled to God. Christ is the revelation and source of redemption and restoration.

Therefore, Christianity is not about right and wrong. We have all done wrong. It is about how we are brought back into relationship with God.

Answer 6

I understand your point AND question, but even the bible talks about righteousness without God. It doesn't say that a man's righteousness is not righteous at all. The word just proclaims man's righteousness as "filthy rags" in comparison to acts/living motivated by the Holy Spirit.
In truth and I'm speaking from experience, "the holy spirit teaches all things." So in turn, Mary could receive Jesus based on another's testimony and then receive teaching from the holy spirit within. I've prayed and studies COUNTLESS times wherein God has revealed something to me about a person or a situation or a principal. Not saying that I'm anything great or good, because I absolutely am NOT! LOL...but what has happened......when I've reinserted myself into corporate worship...it never fails that either I say something to someone who looks at me with a blank stare and ask me how I know.....(which honestly GOD DID TELL ME). It is kinda freakish, but then again, I know that God is real and I depend on his guiding EVERYDAY.....so ethics without God is possible, but not profitable if that makes any sense.

Answer 7

If all morals come from the deity, as you posit, it's arguable that the deity is a moral god at all. It's easy to be "moral" if you are playing by the rules that you have set yourself.

If the deity is the source of morality, then only people can be moral since they can obey the decrees, or not. The deity will always be acting by its own rules, so cannot be considered "moral" by the same terms.

Answer 8

You illustration says...according to the religion Mary has no morals. That is judgement (which I am sure this religion is supposed to avoid) and not necessarily true of Mary. Mary can have morals from within her own spirituality.

Answer 9

Without God there are no ethics and no morals. Takes the Ten Commandments to show you what is right and wrong and you can get your morals there from them. Then it is easy to see that Jesus is who He said He was and that God is the One that we should follow. Simple!!!

Answer 10

>I truly have usually heard it pronounced that philosophy and ethics instructions can practice morality without the want of a author. i'd question the validity of attempting to study morality merely from a philosophy type. a kind can grant you with a much better concept of what questions want to be requested and replied, and what bins to imagine outside of, yet finally you want to do a minimum of distinct the reasoning your self. Blindly believing what a philosophy professor tells you isn't much better than blindly believing what a clergyman tells you. >in my opinion with no author there will be no transcendent which potential in ones existence. in my opinion, the existence of a author has somewhat no referring to even if a persons' existence has which potential. How might want to it? >Nor can there be ANY purpose moral values. I reject that declare as well. >in spite of if philosophy and ethics provide impressive ideas on morality is all of it nonetheless relative per society and man or woman? Nope. >Can all people provide examples from what they have realized in existence/ or in college? i'm no longer certain what you advise by utilizing 'examples'. it type of feels to me that a idea is made from better than merely examples. you would opt to be clearer on what you're asking right here.