Why do we as atheists or agnostics expect a rational conversation with a theist?

Question

Why do we think we will get a rational conversation with a theist about God?

This is like speaking to my son about Santa Claus. My son asks Santa for presents. There are Christmas presents. My son has seen stories on television and seen books and seen Santa at the mall. To my son Santa is real.

But if I ask a child who believes in Santa how is Santa able to get to every house in one night, or how is it that children of rich parents get more/better gifts then children of poor parents, how could I expect to get any sort of intelligent response.

Are we as atheists and agnostics jealous of religious persons believe in something magical and mythological, and that we find ourselves reading their answers to our questions with a hope and fascination like we do when we ask our child, what do you want Santa to bring to you this year?

Answer 1

I feel I can have a rational conversation with you about anything that you are interested in, but just because you aren't interested in religion or God doesn't mean that we can't share information about politics, war, Bin Laden, movies, funny experiences, embarassing stories, family blah blah not all Christians are boring lol

Answer 2

Jim, you ask "why do we think we will get a rational conversation with a theist about God?" A good question, but I think the fault lies with the one who thinks that "God" is a subject that one CAN be rational about.

Because there is no physical, objective proof for or against the existence of "God", rationality is not to be expected in spiritual discussions. Most people who believe in "God" believe in it due to their own personal experiences, something that cannot be either reasoned away or shared with those who have not had similar experiences.

The child who falls asleep on Christmas Eve in an empty house and awakens to gifts under the tree must seek some explanation for the phenomenon. A kindly elf with a desire to share is a comforting and magical way to explain it. In the case of Santa, you *can* show the child the hidden process and explain it away, ending the fantasy. In the case of "God", you can't. There is no way to objectively settle the argument, so it persists

For the most part, this belief in a Santa-God figure is harmless and need not concern us. However, there is a growing sense amoung atheists that the theist belief in a coming "Judgement Day" is causing some destructive and lazy, irrational behaviors. When you believe that Santa will magically show up with new toys, it matters less and less that you are mistreating or destroying your old ones. When you believe that Jesus will come and magically take you away to a new, perfect world or magically restore this world to a pristine condition, it matters less and less that we are polluting and destroying our planet and all the life on it.

I think we continue the argument because we must convince the believers that *we humans* are the only ones that are going to fix the planet and that it's the only one we have. If we do not persist, we risk planetary genocide and an end to Christmas for everyone.

Answer 3

How are you sure that your son, in all his innocence and wonder, is irrational in his belief?

TV is not the only reason he believes in Santa, right? It's not the Santa at the mall that has him convinced. It's that you say it and it comes to pass. He doesn't know what is true about those outside a relationship with you. A child's primary reason for believing is that the parent says/promotes something and it comes to pass. It is born not just of experience, but trust in the parent. And that is a beautiful thing.

When he finds out that there is no literal Santa, only the love and magic you have provided, will he be disillusioned? Is it a fraud you have perpetrated? Hopefully not. Hopefully he will see the love that prompted it.

What would be irrational is for an adult to understand the mechanics but still expect a mystical Santa to leave him presents.

As a child, he may be confused about who brings him presents. What he is not confused about is that someone does.

Answer 4

Have you seen "The God Who Wasn't There"? The filmmaker went back to the religious school he attended as a child and spoke with the current principal, who cut the interview short and refused to give a reason. I don't think he could honestly complain about the tone of the questions, as that was entirely respectful. Maybe he objected to the questions being asked at all.

I asked a question about the Hurricane Katrina victims, wondering what the Christians would say -- and was nearly overwhelmed by their contempt and hatred.

At least your son believes in Santa Claus because it's fun. Theists don't seem to have much fun with their faith.

I don't get it, at all.

Answer 5

Probably for the same reasons that theists would expect respectful conversation from an atheist or agnostic.

Intelligent dialogue does not entail putting other people down for their beliefs, but honestly listening and reflecting on what has been said without the disruption of "oh, I've heard that before..."

Yeah, I'm a theist, and I can hold a rational dialogue; however, I have met very few atheists who want anything less than to simply put me down for believing in something that they do not. That does not make your point of view more valid or rational.

Have you ever read C.S. Lewis? There's some pretty rational conversation in his Mere Christianity. But from the tone of your question, I'm guessing that you think he is merely an ignorant theist who is not worth the time it takes to read. Now tell me, how is that rational?

Answer 6

I think that, as an atheist, I actually expect a small glimmer of hope. That hope is a rational, open-minded conversation that involves people of differing beliefs and faiths - or non-beliefs. I have a genuine interest in the inner-workings of the faith-based mind and the mentality that it breeds.

Perhaps one could say that hoping for that is like a salmon swimming against the current. Some may even argue that the opinions of an atheist can sometimes be overwhelming to those who believe in an organized religion, just as the opinions and attempts by those who are religious are to an atheist.

Personally, I like challenging people to think. I enjoy "getting inside people's heads" and trying to understand how they think (or don't think). What makes them "tick"?

Jeaslousy is not an issue here. The issue at stake is that of religion and spirituality. How is it that so few have broken free of the narrow-minded thinking of religion and how is it that so many still continue to believe? Is it because religion gives people a reason to live? A reason for their existence? A justification for death?

Collectively, we ALL want these answers, regardless of theistic or non-theistic personal beliefs. However, the difference is that, unlike theists, who delve into the mystical and magical, atheists are willing to accept reality for what it is: the meaningless result of chance. I, personally, am examining the inner workings of the minds that cannot accept this idea and challenge their notions of life because if religion had not intersected their lives, the result would be quite different.

While I hold fast to my own notions of reality, I accept that it is not for everyone; that it is not easy to step back and question something you've be taught to believe in for so long. I respect their opinions, however, I do not believe their opinions are original or correct. I believe their opinions are effectively the result of religious-based brainwashing.

I am here to question, to think, to understand, and to awaken them.

Answer 7

People crave understanding. It drives us. If the mystical, mythological and magical need to be dispelled, then so be it. I think, however, in each of our minds, that we want to believe there is some magical or mystical force that is helping us and others with our lives. It's totally natural. However, we as human beings must be willing to explore, understand and interpret. That's what we have minds for. Logic is the antithesis to mysticism, so we need to try to rationalize magic and the myth that there is something out there. It's a paradox. The answer we seek may not be the one we like, but therein lies the reason for mysticism, so we don't have to. The human will is a very powerful thing. One thing I've heard before: "If someone wants God to exist very badly, it will happen by the overwhelming power of human will and imagination."

Consider that food for thought.

Answer 8

A new car, or a house, wichevers easier for him to get in his bag.

And some theists are able to provide rational debates, with educated opinions. If I cant answer a question with some thought, I wont answer it at all.

On the other hand, why do agnostics and atheists ask questions is they cant respect the answers? Countless times I have read questions that they have asked, with some awesome answers by Christians, and yet they will add details where they call then names, tell them they are ignorant. Its not about rationality, its about condemnation. And that happens on both sides of the argument.

But really, you knew this already.

Answer 9

The problem is that religion is by nature irrational and anti-realist. If I can make a rash generalization, most agnostics and atheists tend to have a more rational nature than most theists. However as religion cannot be understood in a rational nature any attempt at rational discussion fails. The problem is that us a-theists still feel the need for a rational explanation, which cannot be provided.

Answer 10

I think I'm a little jealous, to a certain degree. Think about it this way: Say I'm coming home from work and a deranged lunatic stabs me in the neck with a screwdriver paralyzing me for life. I'm bound to be pretty upset, dejected, and possibly suicidal over this turn of events.

However, there are plenty of faithful who would simply take this as part of "god's plan," and be quite happy about the whole thing. Christopher Reeve reportedly claimed that he felt he was better off after being paralyzed (I can't confirm this.)

I'm jealous that I'm not able to engage in such a willful act of self-delusion. I'm also incredibly happy that I'm not able to engage in such a willful act of self-delusion, but that's not really what this question is about.

Basically many of the faithful are able to feel no responsibility for anything (good or bad) that may happen. It's all what "god wants," and that's fine by them.

Then again, what's that they say about ignorance and bliss?

Answer 11

You know Jim that God does treat me very very well. I have a great and adventurous life with him. He has fulfilled even childhood desires that I had and has given me peach and contentment in my life. I know that you won't or can't understand this, but it is wonderful to be loved by God. God is better than santa claus, God gives me things that I maybe only thing about and all of a sudden there it is, and just for me.. I know you don't believe, but it happens all the time to me. I am a Christian because it really works.
What would Santa bring you this year??? Jesus is coming soon and you know what, he is coming for me.. He wants to come for you..