I don't get Romans 4?

Question

It's dealing with people who said that gentile Christians needed to be circumcised based on God's covenant w/ Abraham in Gen 17 where God basically told him to circumcise everyone in his group.

Instead of saying something like 'Well that was the Old Covenant and this is the New Covenant,' he goes into this convaluted arguement about how even though God says to circumcise all these people we don't really need to be since ol' Abe was declared righteous before being circumcised.

It's the type of thing that, if it wasn't written by Paul I'd be like, "er...you can't really do that with scripture dude." Any ideas?

Here is the passage from Gen 17 for reference...

9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

As you respond, keep in mind that Christianity began as a sect of Judaism.

Answer 1

I feel your pain. Romans is difficult, but not impossible, to understand.

Most of Romans deals with this difficult question: to what extent are Christians subject to the Laws given to Moses (there are 613 of them!) Paul refutes the idea pushed upon early Gentile Christians by some Messianic Jews that, in order to be partakers in the New Covenent first disclosed in Jeremiah 31:31 and revealed to humanity through Yeshua (Jesus), one must first become a Jew. Males must be circumcized and all gentiles must follow the Laws given through Moses.

It is important to understand that Paul was a Rabbi, trained by one of the most respected Jewish theologians of his day: Gamaliel. Following Paul's encounter with Jesus on the Road to Damascus, he was given these teachings through visions, words of wisdom and prophecy. That's how we know why we shouldn't say, "dude ... where did THAT come from???" It all came from Jesus.

Paul MUST go into a "convoluted argument" because he wasn't only convincing the Romans they didn't have to be Jews first; he was also convincing Jews that this was unnecessary. If you peruse Acts, you see numerous instances of Messianic Jews objecting to "the uncircumcized" in their midst.

I would summarize Romans 4 this way:

1) Abraham was justified before God because of his faith, not because he was circumcized. If Abraham was justified by circumcision, then, conversly, he had no justification prior to his circumcision. But we know this to be untrue.

2) David recognized the value in having God on your side due to faith: you get forgiveness! This had nothing to do with circumcision.

3) If obediance to the Law of Moses makes a person an "heir" of the Kingdom of God, then that means you can earn your way into Heaven. This invalidates the requirement that a person must have faith.

4) Abraham is an example for us to follow. His faith, apart from the Law and circumcision, shows he was recognized by God as being righteous. As Gentiles, it is important for us to recognize this.

Peace and love in Jesus.

Answer 2

Circumcision was given to Abraham as a sign that he was the chosen of God, that his offspring was the chosen ones and would be as the sands of the sea. It was only a sign of a covenant between God and Abraham. It is spoken of in many places in the New Testament that circumcision is no longer needed as the covenant as Jesus is the fulfillment of the covenant because he was a type of Christ, a precurser if you will. 1 Corinthians 7 : 19 Circumcision is nothing, and un circumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Jesus came to let people know that it was the keeping of God's commandments that was the most important, not circumcision. What does it profit a man if he is circumcised and does not obey the Law of God? Rom. 2:27 Then it says in Romans 2 : 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. It does not take circumcision to be a Jew, but the circumcision of the heart, the cutting away of the unneccesary from the heart and mind of the worldly things. Check out the first three chapters of Romans and maybe you will understand better too. Also check out the site below.

Answer 3

What St. Paul is getting at is that although Abraham was circumcised it wasn't the circumcision itself that justified him. The circumcision was an outward sign to God that Abraham belong to Him, that Abraham was God's chosen vessel. In the New Testament St. Paul tell us to have a circumcision of the heart. Meaning, a change of heart toward God showing God that we've devoted ourselves to Him. Just like Abraham it is not the change of heart that justifies us but it's the result FROM being justified. Christ payed it all on the cross so the law no longer applies to Christians.

Answer 4

Yes I know the answer to your question. When Moses wrote the book of laws it was placed on the outside of the Ark of the Covenant, unlike the 10 Commandments (which God wrote) which were placed on the INSIDE of the Ark. So, when Jesus dies on the cross those laws that Moses wrote and placed on the outside of the Ark ( which symbolized there non-eternalness ) were the laws that were done away with, and not GODS 10 Laws, which Jesus paraphrased in Mark 12:28-34. So when the 'converted' Jews wanted to keep the law of Moses, Paul told them that it was no longer necessary. But remember that when he says things like "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only," he is saying that 'circumcision' is Jew, and 'circumcision' is Gentile.

Answer 5

Paul was using "circumcised" as a synonym for the Jewish people, as he often did in lots of his letters. He wasn't talking about a literal commandment to circumcise every male. That was part of the ceremonial Law necessary for the Jews to follow in the Old Testament, like the Temple regulations and certain other things. It's not necessary anymore (although still a good idea).

Answer 6

Paul is basically (and this is throughout Romans) getting across the point that Jews cannot keep Gentiles out of the churches and the communities any longer because they do not follow the laws of Moses especially now since the Lord Jesus Christ had come and offered forgiveness for all.

Answer 7

I think you are focusing too much on the circumcision analogy. The chapter is about the strength of one's faith, and it does not matter if one is Jew or gentile. If one's faith is strong, then God is with them. Also, one needs to keep the Word of the WHOLE Bible, not just the old or just the new testament. He gave us the WHOLE Word for a reason!

Answer 8

During the time period you described, circumcision was cultural.
Gentiles were encouraged to do this to be found acceptable to their Hebrew counterparts, kind of a becoming all things to all men kind of thing.

Answer 9

The idea is, Abraham was saved without the Law of Moses; therefore, it isn't the law of Moses that saved, but the grace of God.

Answer 10

Romans is a very difficult book to understand. Pray on it and ask the Spirit to enlighten you and allow you understand and to grow through His Word.