Can there be a design with no designer>>?

Question

Mt. Rushmore has existed for about 60 years, but if you "could" give it billions of years could it design itself with just wind, erosion, rain, etc. I mean thats the same concept of evolution/big bang theories that given enough time things can build themselves right>>? Logically everything has an intelligent designer/builder. Wut do u think?

Answer 1

I am amazed you make the statement "Logically everything has an intelligent designer/builder." When in fact not only is such a statement illogical but it leads to either infinite regression or direct contradiction.
If everything has a designer, then your designer has a designer and that designer has a designer. You can see the problem. Now If you say everything has a designer but that the designer does not need a designer, then your designer is not part of everything. If your designer is not part of everything then it doesn't exist.

It can be proven in mathematics that in order to design something a closed designing system must be at least as complicated as what it is designing. If your argument had any validity then your designer would need a greater designer, and that designer would need an even greater designer etc.

However we know from mathematics that something can appear to be designed without really being so. Just look at a fractal. The Mathematician Steven Cook proved a very very simple formula like Wolfram's rule 110 for example generates more apparent local complexity than is contained in the entire solar system.

We understand from mathematics how apparently complex systems come about and it is always due to selection effects. You take a simple but diverse set and select a complex subset from it. In order to do that you need a selecting agent. In the case of our universe we have a selecting agent. That selecting agent is our own existence.

The explaination is that reality is incredibly vast. Only in small apparently complex portions of that reality can beings such as ourselves evolve. It is not a coincidence, nor is it by chance we find ourselves in such a region. Instead it is a necessity.

It is a lot like the snowflake who finds himself in a snowstorm and concludes he was designed by a snow pixie. His argument is that the world is the perfect temperature for snow to form. When in reality the world is vast and only in small portions of it can snowflakes form.

Or you can think of us as like a lottery winner who concludes there must be a cosmic cheater who rigged the lottery, when in fact there were millions of people buying lottery tickets and someone was bound to win.

Now that we have shown that a seemingly complex system does not need to be designed as long as it is part of a vast, diverse whole. How does that vast diverse whole come about. We obviously are getting into extremely difficult ideas here but several physicists are arguing that reality is based upon and indeed is, mathematics. By that they mean that reality consists of the class of necessarily true statements one can make about logical systems.

One physicist has even argued that the class of necessarily true statements one can make about logical systems is isomorphic ( mathematically identical ) to string theory. Basically arguing that nature is mathematically necessary. The reason it does not feel necessary is that we see so little of it, and that we see it from within it rather than seeing it as it really is.

Answer 2

Your assumption is incorrect, but I do understand where your misguided example went astray.

Mt. Rushmore as we call it has existed for millions of years. As a monument to the four presidents, approx. 60 years. And, yes, there was a designer/architect/engineer that created the likenesses from stone, and did so using dynamite and other tools to carve and etch the site. Evidence of their work can be seen when studying the structures up close. You can see and touch chisel marks, cuts, scratches, and blasting holes.

Untouched by man's hand, Mt. Rushmore could have become a pile of rubble or perhaps the top of an extremely high peek -without our intervention. Would it still be Mt. Rushmore as we know it? No. The chance of the four presidents faces appearing in the rock without man's help is astronomical; extremeley remotely possible, but improbable.

This train of thought doesn't apply to creationism because it presupposes that the will of a supreme being is at work. However, you cannot find the spiritual, supernatural, ethereal, or divine equivelant to the Rushmore chisel marks, cuts, scratches, blasting holes in our world. There is absolutely NOTHING in this world that even remotely has a 'fingerprint' of the divine. Although I suppose that one could simply say that it was part of it's plan - to not leave a trace. At which I would respond, "That's an awfully convenient explanation".

Evidence supports reality. Reality does not presuppose a supreme being, designer, engineer, or even an intergalactic hot dog stand salesman.

Intelligent design is a cop-out belief by those who want the best of both worlds: creationism and evolution. The worlds of faith and reality are two VERY different ones. Be careful because it IS a very dangerous, double-edged sword that you're walking on.

Answer 3

Argument by analogy is one of the weakest forms of argumentation you can use. It is inductive, not deductive, meaning that its conclusion goes beyond the premises and cannot be proven deductively.

The argument for intelligent design is an argument by analogy that states that since all the objects men encounter in their daily lives (e.g. clocks, computers, houses, hats, Mount Rushmore) are made by someone, that other things in the universe must also be made by someone. However, there is absolutely no reason to assume that the universe is necessarily the same as objects we encounter on Earth. It's ridiculous to assume that the same laws exist on the level of the universe as exist on our home planet. Even an elementary physics student can tell you that.

Besides, haven't you encountered useful objects that were not designed before? A cave may have been hollowed out by water, rain, or wind, with no purpose in mind, and yet it can serve as shelter. A large rock may have been eroded by water and wind with no purpose or design, and yet it may yield a resemblance to some animal, and it may be used to keep papers upon a desk or hold a door open. Clouds sometimes resemble castles or giants or dragons, but you don't really think that the wind is intentionally sculpting clouds for your amusement, do you?

It's easy to fall into the trap of believing that man is the center of the universe and that everything revolves around us, even the purpose of the things around us. But there is simply no logical reason to believe that this is the case. It's much more probable that the universe was not created by a conscious force and has no "purpose", if by purpose you mean "a use determined in advance that fits into an overall plan".

Logically, we only think everything has an intelligent designer/builder because our imaginations are too limited and we are too self-centered to conclude anything else.

Answer 4

Yes, it absolutely could. If fact, given an infinite amount of tries, it not only could, but MUST. And must an infinite amount of times, as well.

Take the odds of winning the lottery. It's 1 in 13983816. Seems almost impossible, doesn't it? Untill I give you 13983816 tickets. Then you can't help but win. The universe is an awfully huge (perhaps infinite) and awfully old place. It's bought an awful lot of lotto tickets.

Besides, people who use this argument KNOW that it can't be true. They claim that everything is so complex that it has to have a designer. Oh, except for the most complex thing of all, of course, god. He doesn't have a creator. He just is. Hypocrites.

Answer 5

It doesn't work like that. Natural selection is trying to make species as efficient as possible, it's trying to design things like us, but rain, wind, etc. isn't trying to carve another mt. rushmore. Read into evolution (and don't read a christian source that explains some twisted logic evolution) from a reliable, scientific source if you'd really like to understand how things work.

Answer 6

Of course you can have design without designer. No one designed the Grand Canyon, but after enough time it developed. The probability of such happening is high. But then the probability of a Royal Flush on the first deal is very high too. So according to this belief there is no way this could happen so discard your hand and draw an Ace high.

Answer 7

I agree!! God created our universe just as the people that created Mt. Rushmore. Believing in the Big-Bang theory is like believing that a tornado could rip through a feild and make it gorgeous!!

Answer 8

no, the concept is that on our planet, in our circumstances, we happened to be the result. because we can only look at things from our perspective, it looks as though we were the result of some of some designer, that we are special and fated to be, but we are just one possibility of, well more then we could possibly imagine. the idea that we are special, inevitable, is simply the result of being inside our heads. it is not an inconceivable coincidence that we evolved, we are just one result of a sequence of events, the only thing that makes us different from many, many other such results, is that we can think about it, and because we can think about it we think thinking is an amazing feat. I'm sorry if you need more meaning in life then that, but right now there is a cool breeze blowing in my kitchen window, and I'm watching the birds in the yard, i am chewing gum and feeling very happy and peaceful, why does it really mater to me, right now how it all came about? why does there have to be a design for me to enjoy it?

Answer 9

With Mt Rushmore you're expecting a certain outcome. With evolution there's no expectation - the creatures evolve to become what they must so they can survive.

Did you ever stop to think that Adam and Eve were Neanderthals?

Answer 10

some things and shapes could be created by wind, rain and sun, but something with that much persicion, it is unlikely for mt, rushmore. but in illinois there is a place where animals were created with erosion