Prove evolution to me.?

Question

You cannot use secular sources, since they are pieces of secular propoganda that you cannot prove is infallible, which the word of God is.

(By the way, this is a spin on the "prove christianity to me" question posted by supernova earlier)

Actually, Christians didn't hold to the flat earth theory. It was a handful of scholars who claimed to represent the church that claimed the earth was flat. A majority of people back then actually believed the earth was round.

Actually, Christians didn't hold to the flat earth theory. It was a handful of scholars who claimed to represent the church that claimed the earth was flat. A majority of people back then actually believed the earth was round.

Answer 1

ALL THESE ARE NOT THE WORK OF CHANCE

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO SAY, ''IT HAPPENED BY CHANCE''

Just think about the things you see from the moment you wake up in the morning: the pillow under your head, the blanket over you, the alarm clock that woke you up, the slippers you search for as soon as you get out of bed, the window you open to get some fresh air, the clothes hanging in your closet, the mirror you look into every morning, the knife and fork you use for breakfast, the umbrella you take with you when you leave the house, the elevator you get into, the key that opens your car door, the traffic lights along the way, the billboards, the pen, paper and other things on your desk at work...
Spend some time to consider, and it will no doubt occur to you that each of these things was designed for a special purpose. No one would say that it was a matter of chance that everything was where it should be when you arose up in the morning. For example, who would claim that merely by chance, your house key was cut exactly to fit the door? Or that it ended up in your pocket by chance, in the first place? No one would claim that the billboards along the road were put there by chance, or that the meanings they intend came about by randomly painted symbols.
By the same token, no one would deny that a staple—nothing other than a specially shaped piece of wire on your desk—was bent and placed in its dispenser in order to hold papers together. Each staple's metal alloy, size, shape, and intended function show the evidence of deliberate design. It was planned specifically to accommodate your needs; and there's a particular reason why staples are so often found in any office setting.
What about the people you see walking along the street? Or the trees you pass by, the dog that runs out in front of you, the pigeons that build their nests in the eaves of your house, the flowers on your table, the sky above you? Could their existence be by chance, do you think?
It would be nonsense to even consider this possibility! Everything surrounding you, animate and inanimate alike, is too wonderful and complex to be compared with man-made items or ever to be ascribed to the operations of chance. Each is an example of a conscious creation, requiring consummate intelligence and skill. Everyone who finds it illogical to think that even a single staple came about by the proper bending of a wire by chance, will see that it is even more impossible that human beings, cats, birds, trees and the entire universe emerged by chance.
But today, there are people who cannot see this clear reality. Or rather they see it, but pretend not to. They claim that trees, birds, clouds, houses, cars, you yourself, others around you—in short, everything in the universe, animate and inanimate, is all the work of blind chance.
These people, known as Materialist-Darwinists, maintain the contradictory idea that chance occurrences can display supreme intelligence; and that the sum total of millions of chance events, occurring in sequence, can show creative power. According to Materialist-Darwinists, chance events have greater intelligence than every person in the world—no matter how many people have come and gone. They claim that a genius called "chance" has shaped everyone's brain, cognitive ability, judgment, memory, and countless other human characteristics for hundreds of thousands of years.
According to Materialist-Darwinists, time is the only thing that this brilliant genius needs to bring about such extraordinary events. Their warped logic claims that, if given time, chance can transform a mass of inert, unconscious atoms into, for example, a fig, olive, strawberry, orange, peach, tomato, pomegranate, melon, banana, violet, tulip, orchid, or rose; into ants, butterflies, peacocks, horses, giraffes, and human beings, or any of a million other things you may not think of. Moreover, it claims that chance can bring into existence every star, the sun, and all planets in their orbits. According to Darwinism, all students, doctors, architects, businessmen, engineers, and scientists came into being over the course of time by chance, working patiently with the help of a few minerals, a bit of water, and sunlight. Interestingly, the deity of chance at the basis of this false idea is, at the same time, used by Materialist-Darwinists in their books, conferences and heated discussions to explain their own chance existence. This is the essence of the theory of evolution and the materialist philosophy, which some evolutionist-materialist scientists describe by using Latin words in a difficult, deliberately obscurantist style.
In this book, we'll examine the irrationality of those who have entered the blind alley of chance, ignoring the wondrous design that surrounds them as well as the proofs of creation, and denying the evident existence of God Who created them and the universe they live in.
Before starting our discussion, though, it's useful to point out that Materialist-Darwinists' self-contradictory position arises from a conceptual deficiency that has been common throughout history. In the past, pagans and godless societies carved totems and statues of gods with their own hands, ignorantly believing that images of stone and clay had creative power. God speaks of these people in the Qur'an (25: 2-3):
He to Whom the kingdom of the heavens and the earth belongs. He does not have a son and He has no partner in the Kingdom. He created everything and determined it most exactly. But they have adopted gods apart from Him which do not create anything but are themselves created. They have no power to harm or help themselves. They have no power over death or life or resurrection.
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CHANCE IS NOT A DEITY: IT IS GOD WHO IS THE CREATOR OF ALL THAT EXISTS


The theory of evolution, as proposed by Charles Darwin in the 19th century, is one of the most unbelievable and irrational claims in history. Despite this, over its 150-year history it's been accepted by many scientists, professors, doctors and researchers, and many others who have expended great effort to defend evolution to the point of accepting its scientific contradictions.
This theory puts forth the irrational claim that all plants, animals and human beings are the result of blind, unconscious, accidental events. Evolutionists believe that millions of years ago, in the primal soup of the oceans or in pools of water, mindless atoms with no knowledge, powers of reason came together in certain proportions and later, by chance, formed the proteins and cells that even today's scientists with the most advanced laboratory technology have not been able to duplicate. They go so far as to say that these cells, in their turn—and again by sheer chance—formed starfish, fish, sparrows, hawks, seagulls, penguins, cats, lambs, lions, and even human beings who possess the faculty of reason.
To demonstrate just how incredible the claims of evolutionists are, let anyone who believes in the creative power of chance events take a large barrel. Let them put into it however much material they believe is required to form a living thing. For example, let them include all the needed elements—carbon, phosphorus, calcium—as well as organic compounds like amino acids, proteins, lipids, and carotene. Then let them add to this mixture whatever outside influence they choose. For example, heat or chill the barrel. Let it be struck by lightning or apply electric current. Let them stir the mixture with whatever advanced devices they may have. In addition, let them stand guard on this barrel transferring this responsibility from father to son for millions, even billions, of years. And so as to increase the chances of success, let them control the mixing at every moment. Let them consult with others;meet with the world's foremost biologists, geneticists, physicists and experts on evolution. Leave them free to produce whatever conditions they deem necessary to originate life.
Yet despite all this serious, conscious effort, they'll never be able to produce anything like a living being in that barrel. No matter what they do, they'll never be able to produce the living things pictured in this book.
Let those atoms in that barrel perform any reactions they want; never will they begin an "evolution" capable of producing brilliant scientists like Einstein and Newton able to solve complex problems; artists like Michelangelo and Picasso able to create masterpieces; musicians like Beethoven and Mozart able to compose melodies to delight the human spirit; discoverers;scientists able to examine under electron microscopes the molecules and atoms out of which they themselves are composed; talented actors like Humphrey Bogart and Charlton Heston; celebrities like Steve Martin, Bon Jovi and Sting. Or consider the many artists; those who take pleasure in symmetry, esthetics and harmonious colors; those able to design automobiles and write books; thinkers with faculties of logic and judgment;human beings able to retain in memory what they have learned, share longings, feel excitement and pleasure;who are possessed with a sense of love, mercy and compassion; who enjoy the taste of food and whose appetite is stimulated by a cake baking in the oven; who laugh at something funny and enjoy being with their friends; who can defend an idea and carry on a discussion.
Bring unconscious atoms together in whatever way you prefer. Never will they be able to bring about a single one of these living things, or even one of their cells.
If so—if no living thing can ever be produced by human effort and the whole pool of human knowledge—how can life be brought into being with the aid of unconscious atoms and chance events? Any intelligent human being of conscience can certainly understand that he—and other living things—cannot be the result of chance events. Every intelligent, unprejudiced person with a conscience knows that God has created all these living things with His incomparable power.
Regrettably, a segment of the population has accepted this irrational scenario throughout the 20th century. Professors, scientists and teachers may ridicule the "primitive" beliefs of pagan societies, while themselves accepting the nonsense of evolution. In this, they're equally as benighted as those human beings who expect a wooden idol can help them. God's Messenger, he Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, also reminded anyone afflicted with such blindness that the greatest sin is associating His creatures with God:
The most severe sin is to associate partners with God, while He has created you.1
In the Qur'an (29:17), God warns those who worship idols and invent lies about them that their power is strong enough to do anything.
Instead of God, you worship only idols. You are inventing a lie. Those you worship besides God have no power to provide for you. So seek your provision from God and worship Him and give thanks to Him. It is to Him you will be returned.
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THE FLAWLESS ORDER OF THE UNIVERSE FALSIFIES CLAIMS THAT IT CAME ABOUT BY CHANCE

The universe with all its creations, both animate and inanimate, has a flawless design, unique systems, and an ordered balance that provide all the conditions necessary for living things to survive. Discoveries, especially those made in the 20th and 21st centuries, have shown that the flawless design of the universe is clearly the work of a supreme intelligence. It is God, with His supreme intelligence, limitless knowledge and eternal power, Who created the universe.
But this fact, established with clear proofs by 20th-century science, is ignored by those who have adopted the Darwinist-Materialist philosophy. Materialists may claim that the universe is the product of chance and chaos, but when we examine the flawless systems that functioned in forming the universe, not to mention the balance and harmony existing among its living things, we clearly see that it cannot be the product of chance.
In The Mysterious Universe, the English physicist Sir James Jeans describes the flawless order in the cosmos:
A scientific study of the universe has suggested a conclusion, which may be summed up ... in the statement that the universe appears to have been designed by a pure mathematician.2
Every planet in the universe, large and small, is the critically important part of a larger order. Not one of their positions in space or any of their movements is random. On the contrary, their countless details known to us so far have been created and especially adjusted for a particular purpose. Of all the innumerable factors influencing the balances in the universe, a change in the position of just one planet is enough to bring chaos. But these balances are never upset. The universe continues on, in its perfect order, with no problems. All of this is a result of God's supreme power in creation.

''He Who created the seven heavens in layers. You will not find any flaw in the creation of the All-Merciful. Look again –do you see any gaps? Then look again and again. Your sight will return to you dazzled and exhausted!'' (Qur'an 67:3-4)

"God, there is no god but Him, the Living, the Self-Sustaining. He is not subject to drowsiness or sleep. Everything in the heavens and the earth belongs to Him. Who can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them but they cannot grasp any of His knowledge save what He wills. . . ." (Qur'an 2: 255)

Charles Darwin first proposed the theory of evolution, which suggests that all living things came into being by the mechanism of chance. But the universe's perfect design led even Darwin to admit that there is no room for chance in its creation. As he wrote:
This [conviction in the existence of God] follows from the extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capacity of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity.3
"The Originator of the heavens and earth. When He decides on something, He just says to it, ‘Be!' and it is." (Qur'an 2: 117)

The distance between the Earth and our moon ensures many important balances and is extremely vital for the continuation of life on Earth. Indeed, the slightest variation in the distance between the two bodies could give rise to significant imbalances. For example:
- If the moon were much closer [to the Earth], it would crash into our planet, if much farther away, it would move off into space.
- If it were much closer, the tides that the moon causes on the earth would become dangerously larger. Ocean waves would sweep across low-lying sections of the continents. Resultant friction would heat the oceans, destroying the delicate thermal balance needed for life on earth.
- A more distant moon would reduce tidal action, making the oceans more sluggish. Stagnant water would endanger marine life, yet it is that very marine life that produces the oxygen that we breathe.4
The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said:
O God:All the Praises are for You:You are the Lord of the Heavens and the Earth. All the Praises are for You:You are the Maintainer of the Heaven and the Earth. You are my only God [Whom I worship] and there is no other God for me [I worship none but You].5

"You will see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds—the handiwork of God Who gives to everything its solidity. . . . " (Qur'an 27: 88)

"And the earth: how We stretched it out and cast firmly embedded mountains onto it and caused luxuriant plants of every kind to grow in it." (Qur'an 50: 7)

The distribution of heavenly bodies in the universe is designed exactly to conform to the needs of human life. In his book The Symbiotic Universe, American astronomer George Greenstein explains the importance of the huge voids in space and the distances between heavenly bodies:
All that wasted space! On the other hand, in this very waste lies our safety. It is a precondition for our existence. Most remarkable of all is that the overall emptiness of the cosmos seems to have no other consequence in the astronomical realm. Had the stars been somewhat closer, astrophysics would not have been so very different. The fundamental physical processes occurring within stars, nebulas, and the like would have proceeded unchanged. The appearance of our galaxy as seen from some far-distant vantage point would have been the same. About the only difference would have been the view of the night time sky from the grass on which I lie, which would have been yet richer with stars. And oh, yes—one more small change: There would have been no me to do the viewing.6

"This is God's creation. Show me then what those besides Him have created! The wrongdoers are clearly misguided." (Qur'an 31: 11)


Contemporary philosopher Jean Guitton of the French Academy writes:
The first conditions that determined the basic constants of nature and the emergence of life were set in place with amazing exactness. To give an idea of how precisely the universe appears to have been constructed, it is enough to think of a golfer who can hit his ball from Earth to a hole on Mars! 7

"God is He Who raised up the heavens without any support—you can see that—and then established Himself firmly on the Throne. He made the sun and moon subservient, each running for a specified term. He directs the whole affair. He makes the Signs clear so that hopefully you will be certain about the meeting with your Lord." (Qur'an 13: 2)

"Do you not see that everyone in the heavens and everyone on the earth prostrates to God, and the sun and moon and stars and the mountains, trees and beasts and many of mankind? But many of them inevitably merit punishment. . . ." (Qur'an 22: 18)

"Do you not see how He created seven heavens in layers, and placed the moon as a light in them and made the sun a blazing lamp?" (Qur'an 71: 15-16)

"In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate. We adorned the lowest heaven with lamps and guarded it. . . ." (Qur'an 41: 12)

"Did We not make the earth a receptacle for the living and the dead? Did We not place firmly embedded mountains in it, soaring high into the air, and give you sweet fresh water to drink?" (Qur'an 77: 25-27)

"He sends down water from the sky and river-beds fill up and flow according to their size, and the floodwater carries a rising foam. . . ." (Qur'an 13: 17)

If the laws of the universe allowed only the solid and gaseous states of matter, life would never have come into being. This is because the atoms in solid matter are compact, relatively motionless, and do not allow the dynamic molecular activity needed for living organisms to develop. The atoms in gasses have no stability and move freely, preventing the functioning of the complex mechanisms of living organisms.
In short, there must be a fluid environment for the functions necessary for life to develop. The most ideal fluid—rather the only ideal fluid—is water.

The suitability of Earth's environment for the sustaining life is too wondrous to ever be explained by chance occurrences. Lawrence Henderson, a professor in Harvard University's department of biological chemistry, says the following in this regard:
The fitness... [of these compounds constitutes] a series of maxima—unique or nearly unique properties of water, carbon dioxide, the compounds of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen and the ocean—so numerous, so varied, so complete among all things which are concerned in the problem that together they form certainly the greatest possible fitness.8

God has created the amount of water in the world in the way most appropriate for the survival of living things. The 18th century English natural scientist John Ray, writes the following in this regard:
… [I]f there were but half the sea that now is, there would also be but half Quantity of Vapors, and consequently we could have but half as many Rivers as now there are to supply all the dry land we have at present, and half as much more; for the quantity of Vapors which are raised, as well as to the heat which raised them. The Wise Creator therefore did so prudently order it, that the seas should be large enough to supply Vapors sufficient for all the land.9
To claim that all these events resulted from chance events, a person would have to be completely deluded.

"We pour down plentiful water, then split the earth into furrows. Then We make grain grow in it, and grapes and herbs and olives and dates." (Qur'an 80: 25-29)

". . . . Luxuriant gardens and orchards and meadows, for you and your livestock to enjoy." (Qur'an 80: 30-32)

The molecular biologist Michael Denton writes:
The fitness of water [for life] would in all probability be less if its viscosity were much lower. The structures of living systems would be subject to far more violent movements under shearing forces if the viscosity were as low as liquid hydrogen... If the viscosity of water was much lower, delicate structures would be easily disrupted . . . and water would be incapable of supporting any permanent intricate microscopic structures. The delicate molecular architecture of the cell would probably not survive.
If the viscosity was higher, the controlled movement of large macromolecules and particularly structures such as mitochondria and small organelles would be impossible, as would processes like cell division. All the vital activities of the cell would be effectively frozen, and cellular life of any sort remotely resembling that with which we are familiar would be impossible. The development of higher organisms, which is critically dependent on the ability of cells to move and crawl around during embryogenesis, would certainly be impossible if the viscosity of water was even slightly greater than it is.10

"Say: ‘What do you think? If, one morning, your water disappears into the earth, who will bring you running water?' "(Qur'an 67: 30)

"Have you thought about the water that you drink? Is it you who sent it down from the clouds or are We the Sender?" (Qur'an 56: 68-69)

Water is renewed in a continuous cycle, in a state ready to be used by plants, animals, and human beings. Due to the sun's influence, the Earth's water is purified by evaporation. Evaporated water condenses in the atmosphere, forming clouds, and falls to the earth again as rain. In one year, for example, it is calculated that roughly six to seven hundred million tons of water evaporates at the equator, rises into the atmosphere, is carried towards the North and the South Poles, and eventually returns to the seas again, in the form of rain.
If this transformation did not occur—that is, if water didn't evaporate and return to the earth, life would certainly come to an end.

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Here is a wonderful book about Evolution Theory:

((The Collapse Of The Theory Of Evolution In 20 Questions))

(Word file)
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=80&Format=rtf

(PDF file)
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=80&Format=pdf

Useful sites which may help :
http://www.harunyahya.com
http://www.harunyahya.net
http://www.islam-guide.com/islam-guide.p...
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Answer 2

Well, not being a creationist, but still a believing Christian, I feel like you're missing the boat from the Christian perspective. To many Christians (particularly those who might end up as creationists) the Bible is the standard, meaning that if it is in the Bible, no other evidence is needed, if it is is not, and conflicts with the Bible, then it is not true. That's what a standard is, by definition- it's like a ruler or a protractor- any angle that the protractor doesn't measure as 90 degrees is not 90 degrees. However, you should be aware that many people, some even very honest and otherwise good scientists, buy into into creationism or intelligent design. Creationists and Intelligent Design folks DO often and long discourse on why these theories are true and evolution is not. I believe they are wrong, but I still believe in a personal God, and still believe in the Bible in the most literal way it can be taken without making the earth only about 7000 years old. In other words, you've simply only been exposed to the anti-evolution propaganda, don't worry, eventually you'll see the other sorts out there. The most important thing for most creationist media is simply to cast doubt upon evolution- not to seek converts but to protect the faith of those already converted. That means the protecting the Biblical account isn't priority, trashing the 'conflicting' account is. Anyway, take it as you will, but I know, as sure or more surely as I know that creationism is bunk, that God exists, is personal, and cares about the humans on Planet Earth. The more Biology, Chemistry, and Physics I learn, the more certain I am of it. And having read the other answers now, I agree with the fellow who suggested posting in Spirituality. Sorry if I caused any disharmony myself, no belligerent intent on my part.

Answer 3

Well, I would like to point out a few things first.. First thing, we still call it the "theory of gravity" even tho everything that goes up must come down.. Secondly, The church for a long time told people that the world was flat.. Does anyone still believe that?

I think that people get way to caught up in trying to either prove that evolution existed or that god created it... When really evolution is pretty much fact.. The question we should be asking is did god have anything to do with it? Which is highly debatable. Because whether god exists is debatable..

Personally I see god as a force.. Not as a invisible man judging everyone everywhere they go and for everything they do.. There is an obvious singular force in science; Energy.. Every partical of every atom is strings of energy compiled on top of each other... All of these strings bounce back and forth so fast that they are void of dimension, space and time...

Every single atom when intoduced to different sources of energy change into more complex atoms (Hydrogen being the least complex). These complex atoms start forming molecular bonds and start slowing down and becoming matter.. This matter slowly becomes more complex and starts forming simple protiens or DNA... DNA is a complex pattern that tells your body how to grow... These DNA's become more complex because they are essentially energy competing for space and/or resource(external energy).

Now if you would for me picture the last 1,000 years of man kind..I will only use one as an example because there are FAR to many to go through.. One day some one figured out that if you take charcoal, salt(potasium nitrate) and sulfur together that it would cause a really fast explosion. Then someone realized that if you use charcoal in a slower burning mixture then you could heat up water with it. Thuss leading to the to te steam engine and eventually leading us into the industrial revolution and to cars, planes,ect. Which ALL of these things were adaptations that humans brought about to further our species and that is evolution..

It really seems to me that evolution is SO fact that it's ridiculous to debate.. But, it is peoples favorite for sure... So, I am always bogged down with this question. Because, I love debating.. But, I have yet to hear a serious explaintion other than the one that is offered in the bible and really isn't that an evolution? It may be a symbolic one.. But, it is none the less an evolution..
And whose to say that god didn't create the universe in a series of changes?

I could go on and on and on about how appant this so called "theory" is. I don't have time to continue such a massive undertaking.. Because, it's a trillions upon trillions of years worth of process...
But, I will check back and see if there is any legitimant argument supporting that any of what I have said is not true... Or where ever this conversation EVOLVES to if you will...


P.S. I am not a Jesus basher.. I love him for the fact that he tried to open peoples hearts and minds to the fact that god is all around us and we do not need buildings of stone and wood.. "split a peice of wood; I am there; Lift a rock and you will find me."

Answer 4

You are not looking for an answer. You are trying to start an argument. How about this: PROVE that the word of God is infallible. Can you? That is an act of FAITH. Either you believe it, or you don't. Evolution is a scientific model that very effectively explains all of the physical evidence we have on earth, from fossil records to DNA, regarding biological processes that have been going on for millennia. Evolution is NOT INCONSISTENT with religious faith. You can believe in God, or Jesus Christ, or Allah, or Buddha, or Xenu, and still believe in Evolution.

Answer 5

How do you prove evolution? A thousand years is over faster than the blink of an eye for evolution, so by conventional means you cannot "prove" it. You can't sit around in a lab, smoking some pipes with big white lab coats on, reading paper a machine's putting out. "Guess what, dr., this computer says evolution is true!" It doesn't work like that. I won't even advise for you to look into the evidence for evolution, your mind is clearly too far set for anything to affect it judging from your last statement.

Answer 6

It cannot be proven yet, however it has some striking evidence in its favor. For instance, the fact that our DNA is strikingly similar to that of a pig. So much so that many pigs can produce insulin for many of our diabetic humans. Another strong evidence is the bones found of prehistoric man. I'd like to think that we are better off with a straighter back and larger brain. We evolved to where we are. If there was no evolution, we would still be hunched over with slanted foreheads.

Answer 7

Prove the virgin birth to me. What of the parting of the Red Sea?
Faith based. You don't want an answer, you want an argument, which is evident when you set your terms.
Kind of like some shlep who says prove the existence of microbes without a microscope. Think up a real question, oh infallible one.

Answer 8

Alright:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

After all, what part of what we observe on Earth is not part of God's unspoken word to man?

(PS: I'm just doing what Creationists do when they insist that Creationism/ID is Science)

EDIT: TO Anna D: You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Evolution suggests in progression of species. All populations of organisms are evolving together, what we see today is the end result. "Pollen and Bees" is an example of Evolutionary Behaviour forming and solidifying into an essential method.

Answer 9

Well, since you put it that way. The great God, Vishnu, has told us we evolve.


UPDATE: John S.
Gravity behaves lawfully. There are theories of gravity. For example, in the current "M-theory" there's a proposal that gravity leaks into our universe from another. This would account for it's relative weakness as a force.

Note I said it "would account." Work still has to be done in this area.

Answer 10

Prove God to me.I believe in God but the door can swing both ways.Accept God didn't leave any fossil records or soil samples to study that proves he exists and can be studied to find a date that might show how old he is or how he developed.

Answer 11

Hey ServantOfGod, gravity is also "just a theory," since we can't prove it. But most scientists take both evolution and gravity as givens, because they have been as close to proven as possible for now. Let me know when you start floating, will you?