I can prove God exists, who can refute it?

Question

The concept or belief in God is not a result of fear in its origination but to its realization. For example, when it rains, you use an umbrella to protect yourself against rain but before the thought of using the umbrella, did not the umbrella exist? Of course God is Higher, and if we were able to see God, would that make him more worthy of worship or less? Scientifically you have to believe in God b/c matter is based on cause and effect so it can not go indefinitely unless matter is perfect and eternal, which it is not b/c matter continuously changes but some thing perfect would not require change b/c it is sustained by itself. So matter has a end, but none the less if you believe that matter always existed and is perfect, who was the Decision Maker to initiate the original change of creation, since you believe in its eternity, you must accept it as perfect in the first place. Thus God must be in the formula as the Originator of creation and its attributes of cause and effect. Shi'ite

If you paint, is your art you? Is 'The David' Michaelangelo? Perhaps it is a reflection of part of them. Cause and effect rules every thing spiritual and material. The gravitational pull turns the earth around the sun; that is cause and effect. If there are flaws, I want to know them so I can perfect my argument. Nothing can be perfect and change; the essence of perfection is the fact that change does not occure. Things are born and move towards nonexistence materially all the time. So if matter was perfect, I would live for ever. If you don't believe me just b/c then that is not logical. God existed before existence. You are thinking of Him as matter which He is not, neither is He spirit. Nothing can describe Him.

Sources:

Holy Qur'an/Nahjul Balagha/Yahoo! search prophesies of Islam/Muhammad in the Bible and other holy documents, I dare you!

Mathematics is pure cause and effect e.g 1+1=2; but God's formula is 1+0=1 (One God + His creation = One God).

Eiglhorn, can you provide examples of your arguments against?

Can you explain to me quantum mechanics and string theory. Also, making a decision to believe in some thing or not, or to feel one way or not, is still cause and effect outside of matter. Some thing was the cause of your belief, and your belief stays current unless it is caused by a more realistic idea in which your previous effect (belief) changes. Also, some one else mentioned the idea of time being circular, but this is theory; cause and effect is obviously a fact; so fact will carry heavier weight than theory. Just to note, the essence of truth is to be able to accept change we did not know or understood, thus we move towards perfection of intellect no matter how much we may have become attached or used to a certain idea.

The imperfect/small adapts to the greater perfect, which itself is imperfect to some thing that is more perfect/larger than it, so it must adapt. So change is taking place. If your argument is that change is perfect, it is not. It is just more perfect or just greater physically to the lesser perfect/smaller matter. Basically it sounds like, you are comparing in terms of relativity. Ultimately, it is not perfect, b/c it has to change.

Answer 1

Take a look around you from where you sit. You will notice that everything in the room is ‘made’: the walls, the upholstery, the ceiling, the chair where you sit, the book you hold in your hand, the glass on the table and countless other details. None of them happen to exist in your room of their own accord. Even the simple loops of the carpet were made by someone: they did not appear spontaneously or by chance.
A person who is about to read a book knows that it has been written by an author for a specific reason. It would not even occur to him that this book might have come into being by chance. In the same manner, a person who sees a sculpture has no doubt whatsoever that it was made by a sculptor. And not just works of art: even a few bricks resting on top of one another make one think that they must have been brought to rest just so by someone within a certain plan. Therefore, everywhere where there is an order – either small or big – a founder and protector of this order must also exist. If, one day, somebody came forward and said that raw iron and coal came together to form steel by chance, which in turn constructed the Eiffel Tower again by chance, would not he and those who believed him be regarded as insane?
The claim of the theory of evolution, the unique method of denying the existence of Allah(God), is no different than this. According to the theory, inorganic molecules formed amino acids by chance, amino acids formed proteins by chance, and finally proteins formed living creatures again by chance. However, the probability of a living creature being formed by coincidence is less than the probability of the Eiffel Tower being formed in the same manner, because even the simplest human cell is more sophisticated than any man-made structure in the world.
How is it possible to think that the balance in the world came about by coincidence when the extraordinary harmony of nature is observable even with the naked eye? It is the most unreasonable claim to say that the universe, each point of which suggests the existence of its Creator, has come into being on its own.
Therefore, there should be an owner of the balance visible everywhere from our body to the farthest corners of the inconceivably vast universe. So, who is this Creator that ordained everything so subtly and created all?
He cannot be any material being present within the universe, because His must be a will that existed before the universe and created the universe thereupon. The Almighty Creator is One Whom everything finds existence, yet Whose existence is without any beginning or end.
Religion teaches us the identity of our Creator Whose existence we discover with our reason. Through what He has revealed to us as religion, we know that He is Allah, the Compassionate and the Merciful, Who created the heavens and the earth from nothing.
Although most people have the capability to grasp this fact, they spend their lives unaware of it. When they look at a landscape painting, they wonder who its painter is. Later, they praise the artist at length for his beautiful work of art. Despite the fact that they face numerous originals of that painting the moment they turn around, they still disregard the existence of Allah, Who is the only owner of all these beauties. In truth, not even a lengthy research is needed to understand the existence of Allah. Even if one had to live in a room from the time he was born, countless pieces of evidence in this room alone would be enough for him to grasp the existence of Allah.
The human body so overflows with evidence that it could not be contained in many
multivolume encyclopaedias. Even giving a few minutes of conscientious thought to it all is enough to understand the existence of Allah. The present order is protected by Allah and maintained by Him.
The human body is not the only food for thought. Life abides in every square millimetre of the earth, be it observable by men or not. The world overflows with many living beings, from unicellular organisms to plants, from insects to sea animals, and from birds to human beings. If you take a handful of soil and look at it, even therein you can discover manifold living creatures with diverse characteristics. The same is true also for the air you breathe. Even on your skin, there are many living creatures whose names are unknown to you. In the intestines of all living beings are millions of bacteria or unicellular organisms that help digestion. The animal population in the world is many times greater than the human population. When we also consider the plant world, we see that there is not a single spot on the earth where there is no life. All of these creatures that are spread over an area of millions of square kilometres have different body systems, different lives and different contributions to the ecological balance. It is preposterous to claim that all these have come into existence by chance with no aim or purpose. No living being has come to exist through its own accord or effort. No coincidental happening can ever result in such complicated systems.
All of this evidence leads us to the conclusion that the universe works with a certain ‘consciousness’. What, then, is the source of this consciousness? Surely it is neither the living nor the non-living beings in it. Nor can they be the ones that maintain the harmony and preserve the order. The existence and glory of Allah reveals itself in countless proofs in the universe. In fact, there is not even a single man on the earth who will not accept this evident reality from the heart. Yet they still deny it ‘in iniquity and arrogance though their souls are convinced thereof’ as stated in the Qur'an. (Surat an-Naml, 14)
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Have you ever thought about the fact that you did not exist before you were conceived and then born into the world and that you have come into existence from mere nothingness?
Have you ever thought about how the flowers you see in your living room everyday come out of pitch black, muddy soil with fragrant smells and are as colourful as they are?
Have you ever thought about how mosquitoes, which irritatingly fly around you, move their wings so fast that we are unable to see them?
Have you ever thought about how the peels of fruits such as bananas, watermelons, melons and oranges serve as wrappings of high quality, and how the fruits are packed in these wrappings so that they maintain their taste and fragrance?
Have you ever thought about the possibility that while you are asleep a sudden earthquake could raze your home, your office, and your city to the ground and that in a few seconds you could lose everything of the world you possess?
Have you ever thought of how your life passes away very quickly, and that you will grow old and become weak, and slowly lose your beauty, health and strength?
Have you ever thought about how one day you will find the angels of death appointed by Allah (God) before you and that you will then leave this world?
Well, have you ever thought about why people are so attached to a world from which they will soon depart when what they basically need is to strive for the hereafter?
Man is a being whom Allah furnishes with the faculty of thought. Yet, most people do not use this very important faculty as they should. In fact, some people almost never think.
In truth, each person possesses a capacity for thought of which even he himself is unaware. Once man begins to use this capacity, facts he has not been able to realise until that very moment begin to be uncovered for him. The deeper he goes in reflection, the more his capacity to think improves, and this is possible for everyone. One just has to realise that one needs to reflect and then to strive hard.
Someone who does not think will remain totally distant from truths and lead his life in self-deception and error. As a result, he will not grasp the purpose of the creation of the world, and the reason for his existence on the earth. Yet, Allah has created everything with a purpose. This fact is stated in the Qur'an as follows:

We did not create the heavens and the earth and everything between them as a game. We did not create them except with truth but most of them do not know it. (Surat ad-Dukhan: 38-39)
Did you suppose that We created you for amusement and that you would not return to Us? (Surat al-Muminun: 115)

Therefore, each person needs to ponder the purpose of creation, first as it concerns him himself, and then as it pertains to everything he sees in the universe and every event he experiences throughout his life. Someone who does not think, will understand the facts only after he dies, when he gives account before Allah, but then it will be too late. Allah says in the Qur'an that on the day of account, everybody will think and see the truth:

That day Hell is produced, that day man will remember; but how will the remembrance help him?
He will say, "Oh! If only I had prepared in advance for this life of mine!" (Surat al-Fajr: 23-24)

While Allah has given us a chance in the life of this world to reflect and derive conclusions from our reflections, to see the truth will bring us great gain in our life in the hereafter. For this reason, Allah has summoned all people, through His prophets and books, to reflect on their creation and on the creation of the universe:

Have they not reflected within themselves? Allah did not create the heavens and the earth and everything between them except with truth and for a fixed term. Yet many people reject the meeting with their Lord. (Surat ar-Rum: 8)

NOW, IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH OF THIS LIFE, PLEASE CHECK AT LEAST ONE OF THE FOLLOWING LINKS. (All books are FREE)

The Truth of This Life:
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=134&Format=pdf
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Allah (God) is Known Through Reason:
http://harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=88&Format=pdf
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The Nightmare Of Disbelief:
http://harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=256&Format=pdf
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Jesus (PBUH) Did Not Die:
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=3822&Format=pdf
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The Signs of Jesus' (pbuh) Second Coming:
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=2229&Format=pdf
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Jesus Will Return:
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=383&Format=pdf
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Never Plead Ignorance:
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=158&Format=pdf
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Never Forget
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=345&Format=pdf
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Not By Chance:
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=1815&Format=rtf
(word)
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=1815&Format=pdf
(PDF)
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Signs Of God:
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=1962&Format=pdf
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Millions of Proofs that Refute Darwinism
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=4813&Format=pdf
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The Collapse Of The Theory Of Evolution In 20 Questions:
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=80&Format=rtf
(word)
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=80&Format=pdf
(PDF)
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Our Messengers Say
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=3433&Format=pdf
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The Disasters Darwinism Brought To Humanity:
http://www.harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=74&Format=pdf
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A Definitive Reply To Evolutionist Propaganda:
http://harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=210&Format=pdf
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Evolution Deceit:
http://harunyahya.net/popup/Download.php?WorkNumber=462&Format=pdf
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Reference:
http://harunyahya.com
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Two wonderful VIDEOS:
THE CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE (video).
http://harunyahya.com/m_video_creation_universe.php
The miracle of man's creation (video):
http://www.harunyahya.com/m_video_detail.php?api_id=1249

Related site: http://www.creationofuniverse.com/
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Other references:

http://www.islam-guide.com/islam-guide.pdf
http://www.muslimconverts.com

Answer 2

I have 2 other answers to questions that may prove you wrong that God does exist. They are:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AoCQAxDNBwgxloeQL3Ky2BDsy6IX?qid=20060616155457AA46IfS
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Agu3fJdibP2P52qqWo3KGAPsy6IX?qid=20060614113417AAUdxwx
Sure, the Bible may be God's word but it is not His word in theory sicne it was written by man and passed down from generation to generation before then. So basically it is not completely true since some cases in the Bible may have been exaggerated over the years and/or confused with other things since it was a while until they were written. This also includes the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and also the other Gospels that the early church did not include for public worship (it had a name but I forget what they were called).

As for the topic of String Theory (aka M Theory as scientifically known) it says that there are A: 11 dimensions, 1 of time, 3 of physical appearance and 7 of unknown physics to humans which it is believed we will never comprehend completely.

The String Theory is basic: if we see these things, then this must occur. In this case what they do out in southern Illinois at Fermilab is in a 6 mile diameter hydrogenerater they take hydrogen atoms (1 proton, no neutrons and one elctron) and strip it of it's electron. They then take get that single proton going to right around light speed and when they do they have it collide with another single proton why do they do this?

The thought is is that eventually after a precisely direct hit a "gravatron" will appear. It is believed that these are close-ringed "strings" that can float freely through space and time and the 11 different dimensions. If they can take one single snpashot of a gravitron before, during, or after it goes into another dimension it is very well possible that they can prove that the String Theory is correct, or basically proving the reigion is inadequate since it would mean matter has been here forever and can exist outside of our own universe in other universes a big as or even bigger than our own universe. For more info check out the links below especially the Nova one. I learned everythign I know about the String Theory from that show and it remains to be to me one of the greatest shows I've ever seen. If you have really good media players on your computer I'd say go to the right on the last link I listed and click "watch the program" if it doesn't cost you anything or a membership to see it.

Answer 3

Scientifically I HAVE to believe in god? Ho ho ho, I don't think so. A belief in god is a very personal issue for a person. And yes, belief in god originates from fear of the unknown. Man always wants to know why and how and what happens when. Using an umbrella as an example of god's existence is a very flimsy one. Just because some guy thought, "hey, we need some type of device that will cover our heads when it's raining, but will fold up when it's not", doesn't mean that god exists - it means that man is very intelligent and inventive. The thought may have originated because god inspired the man to invent the umbrella, but there's no way to prove that it is god's work.

The truth is: no one can scientifically prove that god exists or not. People can tell stories of how they found god and can read religious documents over and over again, but it's all subject to personal insight, emotions, and experience.

People need to quit worrying about it and focus on living their lives and making the world a better place. If we could all stop arguing about god for awhile and quit trying to prove to one another that god exists the way we believe god exists we could see just how beautiful this world is and how elegantly precise everything in nature works.

I do not find that your prove of the existence of god holds any water. To me it sounds like you've been overthinking.

Answer 4

WTF are you smoking? Things change all the time without someONE having created the change. Does God turn the world constantly in order to have the sun come up during the day and the moon at night. Gravitational pull of the sun does.

You totally disband the belief that there was a matter/anti-matter explosion of unbelievable energy that created the universe and instead attribute it to a Decision Maker sitting around in nothingness going "Hmmm, maybe I'll make a universe instead of sitting here in this nothingness." Then let's go one step further if there were no universe because it was not yet created but there was a god, where did god come from? If you're answer is "he created himself" then I say to you the universe can do the same thing and have a scientific explanation to prove how eventually.

Answer 5

Ok, on the umbrella thing. NO, before people thhought of making and using umbrellas, there just weren't any. Umbrella shaped things like on Marchantia sure, no umbrellas though.

Maybe matter is perfect and eternal AND CHANGING. Perfect things still require change. A perfect new car needs new oil when you drive it awhile for example. If it was perfect in your driveway , would there be any reason to even drive anywhere. Not sure about the eternity thing, I just can't get my mind around it.

Answer 6

Sorry to say, but this argument doesn't appear to have any coherency to it.

You first part is a complete non-sequitur, which isn't touched by the rest of your argument and contribtues nothing to the argument. As for your claims in the second part of your argument:

"Scientifically you have to believe in God b/c matter is based on cause and effect"

This is a supposition of Scientific Research, yes... but it's not accepted as a universal law. The current systems of understanding time and space involve causal relationships, but current investigation into such theories as Quantum Mechanics and String Theory reveal relationships that have no cause. It's key to remember your suppositions in order to consider all possible options when one reaches a stumbling block.

Therefore, Science works almost constantly on a causal basis, but it is aware of and engages in science on Quantum levels, where causality doesn't play out. You can't say that Science requires a person to accept that everything has a cause.

"so it can not go indefinitely unless matter is perfect and eternal,"

All that is needed is for matter to be eternal and for Thermodynamic laws to be either changing with time, or our universe being affected by secondary universes, where Thermodynamic Laws (The second law specifically) don't apply.

"Perfection" is unecessary and very ambiguous as the avenue of perfection needs to be specified and shown to be rationally necessary.

"which it is not b/c matter continuously changes but some thing perfect would not require change b/c it is sustained by itself."

Change is not a sign of imperfection. The fact that something changes is irrelevant to virtually any aspect of perfection. One might argue that the "Perfection" you mean in your argument is a form of matter which can respond to any stimuli without change in form or energy, but this would only highlight the lack of necessity of perfection, since something that constantly changes for all eternity would do the job of initiating a causal universe, while not being "perfect" in the sense of not having to change.

Key here is the fact that change doesn't mean degredation of the matter, but instead change of different form of the same useability.

"So matter has a end, but none the less if you believe that matter always existed and is perfect, who was the Decision Maker to initiate the original change of creation,"

If Matter is eternal, then it has no beginning. It has no decision maker. It simply changes in reaction to other matter it contacts.

"since you believe in its eternity, you must accept it as perfect in the first place."

Eternity doesn't mean perfection in all ways. It means the matter always exists ("Perfect" in reaction but not in any other form, never mind aesthetic forms of "perfection", or being a "perfect" square)

EDIT: Uncaused Causes:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/eric_sotnak/kalam.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/vacuum.html

I can't really give an example of Eternal without perfection, because as I've said before, calling things "Perfect" doesn't tell the person much other than that whatever is being assessed is performing it's function without flaw.

A perpetual energy machine might compute perfect reactions eternally, but it's not Perfect in "form" (which is subjective) or power (it's not omniscient) or capable of higher cognitive functions to decide when the function it performs is needed (Omniscience and Omnibenevolence).

Answer 7

You use a cause and effect for matter. Matter does not exsist from cause and effect. Matter is matter. The form can be changed but matter never is destroyed and therefore does not need something to sustain it. the form may need energy to sustain it, but matter is always.

And the unbrella is the greatest example of you not proving anything. In the begining there was no unbrellas. Then one day man said, I want to keep rain off my head. He thought and pondered and invented the unbrella. God played no part in the unbrella.

Answer 8

Who says matter is based on cause and effect. I don't, I believe matter is based on mathematics. What does it mean for something to be perfect anyway. It seems you are just using words when you don't know what they mean. And you could just as easily ( or perhaps even more so) apply your arguments to your Creator God, So now your god needs a creator. You really are not making any sense.

Answer 9

We evolved buddy, from Apes that evolved from a smaller animal before them all the ways back to the 1st atom... Ever hear of the big bang theory?? If God made us then who made God?? Answer that question and I'll give you 10 points... Besides the world had living animals on it, and was around for billions of years before supposedly God created it.. So how did that happen?? Did he just appear after the dinosaurs or something?? Come on... We evolved.. If there was life on other planets do you believe God made them too? Or do other planets have their own God?? Is god human?? Or is it plain and simple... THE TRUE GOD IS MOTHER NATURE...

Answer 10

Your premise is faulty. Proving something only works if people believe it. Even a mathematical proof is only as good as the people who subscribe to it.

The simple fact is that there is NO way to PROVE G-d exists. There's a reason for that though.

If there was a way to prove G-d existed, then people would lose free will and their ability to choose for themselves. Kind of like reading a book after reading the last few pages.

That's why G-d specifically made His existence clearly visible to those who wish to see it, and obviously absent for those who wish not to see it.

Answer 11

Wow. That idea is a REAL stretch!

Your reasoning if so flawed I don't know where to begin! Actually, I take that back. It's not reasoning. It's pseudo-reasoning and pseudo-science.

Come back when you've done some research, put down the bong, and have had a substantial grasp of what you're talking about. THEN we'll talk.