If Homosexuality is a choice, then how come I can't choose to be a homosexual even if I wanted to?

Question

Is the "sin" of homosexuality not available to me?

[Note: I am heterosexual. I am asking this question to try to clarify for me why Christians keep saying that homosexuality is a choice and therefore a "sin." I do not think it is a sin, unless someone can convince me otherwise.]

Answer 1

In answer to Mr. Pizzaguy:

Let's start by laying out precisely what he is asserting.

His post seems to indicate that he is asserting the following:

1. All major monotheistic religions oppose homosexuality, and believe it is perversion --
2. Homosexuality is a choice and not inborn --
3. "Indoctrination" occurs in schools that tells kids to be gay, by teaching them that alternative lifestyles exist --
a. contributing factors include any drug use and child abuse (although child abuse is NOT defined)
b. well adjusted children who do not learn about alternative lifestyles from anyone are heterosexual.
4. Anyone who is not in agreement with the author is unable to reason, and has "made up their mind" -- broken down into simpler terms. The author is right, and anyone who disagrees is crazy.
5. Nothing predisposes anyone to be homosexual or to desire homosexual relationships.
a. You can just say no if you do have such feelings by not allowing them to effect you and not acting on them.
b. Every step is a choice -- (caveat -- homosexuality is like crime -- or possibly is crime, I'm not sure what he is trying to assert there.)
6. Repeat 5 again, using different, somewhat more forceful words.
7. Heterosexuality is also a choice. The author could change and be homosexual tomorrow if he so chose.
8. Definition of "sin," placing of homosexuality within the hierarchy of "sin" -- other theological considerations from the perspectives of author's faith community. The argument that God made homosexuals and thus they are not intrinsically immoral is like saying God made Hitler, so he was perfect. -- Not so much a set of assertions as a restatement (I think) of what the author sees as basic and required theological positions,

I don't think I missed any significant part of Mr. Pizzaguy's post. So, let's answer in order. My points will mirror his, as I've laid out his assertions above. If he asserted something of importance that I missed, please contact me by email re: that particular point.

1. This assertion while interesting, is simply not factually correct. Significant portions of the Christian Church, for example, support equal rights for gays, and some churches (The United Church of Christ, for example) support legalized gay marriage, and actively are campaigning for it. In Judaism, the father of all monotheism, a sizable majority of that faith community supports gay rights and Reform Judaism (the branch of Judaism to which the lion's share of practicing Jews belong) supports and will perform gay marriage. So, prima facie, the argument is false.

While facts prove the argument false, even if it were true, so?

2, 5 and 6. This is the meat of author's argument -- though not I think for his giving of it. A repeated and forceful assertion that homosexuality is a choice, and that any gay person who wants to can be straight (by simple extension that is evidently the authors subpoint here)

The evidence against this assertion becomes stronger every year. There are dozens of studies by reputable scientists which show with increasing force that homosexuality exists in nature, and that it is genetic.

1st. A number of major studies have been done of animals. All the species studied had homosexual behavior -- and all the species that had pair bonds at all had homosexual pair bonding TO THE EXCLUSION OF MATING WITH THE OPPOSITE SEX IN HEAT. Mr. Pizzaguy is invited to explain biologically how that is even possible as a choice for animals, rather than an imperative? (the best book in this particular field is probably Dr. Bruce Bagemihl's book "Biological Exuberance" from St. Martin's Press -- from its bibliography you can find many others, and you can easily find other studies that look at the same phenomena.)

2nd -- the Fruit-fly study. The results for fruit-flies can't be denied (link below). People are trying to say that just because it applies to fruit-flies it doesn't have to to people. Alright, while I accept that the genetic mechanism is much more complex among humans -- why on earth would something like homosexuality be completely genetic in simple species and not genetic at all in the most complex species? It makes no sense, particularly given that no gay person I know EVER remembers being attracted to a female. Bisexuals are attracted to both. Gays are only attracted to same sex. So -- how is that a choice? Isn't it just the opposite of what straight people feel? An inborn automatic response. Period.

Now a sub-point that author made by implication on the other hand, is correct. Implied though not explicitly (enough) stated, is the idea that gay people could just say no -- and refuse to have sex or act on their feelings. That is clearly true. Anyone can choose celibacy. The choice between being miserable, lonely, and hopeless was a clear posit for me and many other gay men I know, as an alternative to being openly gay and forming loving and committed relationships. Jonathan and I have been together nearly 15 years -- and any of our straight friends will tell you that we have the most successful relationship of anyone they know... but the choice to say "yep, I'm gay -- and I'm not ashamed and I'm going to be happy" was a very real one, and I made it. So on this particular point, Mr. Pizzaguy is correct.

3.) I suppose that there actually are people who believe that the schools are out to indoctrinate children and make them gay and are in conspiracy with others to do so -- but I can't even imagine who these people are. There isn't much I can say here without being mean, and I really would prefer not to be mean, so just let me say that if you really want to believe that there is a grand conspiracy to make kids gay by teaching them about alternative lifestyles and then.... I'm not sure if he is asserting parental failure here or deliberate complicity on the part of drug dealers and parents, but... and then introduce them to drugs and abuse them to make sure the "indoctrination" takes -- then I am not going to try to stop you. Believe whatever you want.

4. I don't think I'm being unfair to author by breaking down his assertion here in this manner -- but I do think that the assertion speaks for itself and doesn't really need me to answer it. Think about what he says..... and compare it to my translation of his assertion. Is it something that you would expect in reasoned debate? Do you find it an acceptable rhetorical instrument? Has author proven the assertion? Please, ask yourself those questions, and decide for yourself.

7.) Author's assertion here leads me to think that he has been engaged on this subject for a while and is attempting to preempt the obvious arguments against him -- probably, but see below. Again, I urge you to consider what he writes. Straight friends and enemies alike -- do you really think you could turn off your heterosexuality and be gay tomorrow? I don't think you could. Furthermore, there is only one group I know that can switch back and forth -- and that is bisexuals. I must admit, as I read this assertion in the original, I seriously wondered whether this man really is straight -- or is a bisexual who truly hates his gay half and presumes that all gays are like himself, rather than realizing that he is bisexual. I suspect that is NOT the case, but I am not sure, and this whole assertion makes me wonder, particularly some of his wording "their choice to live a normal lifestyle...." is a good example of a quote that made me turn my head on its side and stare at the screen for a moment. He can assert all he wants, but no gay man I've ever known had a choice, other than to be sexual and to have love -- or to be alone or hidden. If Mr. Pizzaguy can honestly assert that he could choose homosexuality at will, then he is NOT straight to begin with, he truly is bisexual.

I think however that this is a rhetorical trick. Perhaps he will clarify whether it is or not for us. It would be helpful.

8. This is theology. Just as his assertion that homosexuality was chosen is the meat of his argument, here we find the reason he is bothering to make it. As we have already seen, not all monotheistic faiths agree with his core assertion against homosexuality -- when we look at this part of the post we see a group of theological assertions. I can tell you right now, not all monotheistic faiths agree with all of these assertions either, and he knows that. Perhaps most importantly, even within Christianity, entire branches of the faith do not have the same canon as other branches, and not all denominations believe that the Bible is the center of the faith. I certainly do not. The creed and the Eucharist are the center of the faith for me; and in the parish that I attend, a parish of about a thousand members -- I know of no one who actually believes the Bible is divine. Faith, again, differs; and because it differs the man's entire argument, which he claims is based on objective logic, falls to shreds, for he is neither objective -- nor logical.

Thank you for letting me answer this, if you need more, please contact me by email directly. I apologize for how brief I have made such a reply - I know that there are many other things I could have pointed out that might have helped, but I have spent over an hour trying to make sure that my reply was well thought out and cited; and I would like to finish making dinner for us. Thank you again.

Kind regards,

Reynolds Jones
Schenectady, NY
http://www.rebuff.org
[e-mail]

PS To Adam Ray -- What are you talking about? The 7th commandment, in the ten commandments as written in Exodus 34 is quite clear (verse 25) "Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread" -- according to the translation I'm using. Are you perhaps looking at the first version of the ten commandments, the ones that were broken and that God said he would write again, but then changed a bit? The earlier version in Exodus 20 might reflect your concern.

Answer 2

Regardless of what fanatics say, homosexuality is NOT a choice. Why are some Christians so eager to quote old testament laws regarding this but never concern themselves with so many other old testament laws that no-one heeds any longer? The old testatment is full of rules and laws that were abandoned long ago and by which no modern day Christian lives. And I am even more amazed at the way in which so called Christians go against what the Christ they profess to follow has told them - that they shouldn't judge. No-one chooses their sexuality any more than they choose the colour of their eyes or hair. They might use contact lenses or hair dye as disguises but it doesn't ever change what they were born with. There are some who experiment with sex but that won't change their basic orientation. I feel deeply for you, or anyone, whose family doesn't try and understand.

Answer 3

You can. And yes that sin is available to you as are all sins. It's a sin because the word of God says it's a sin. What you believe about It is irrelevant. The Truth doesn't need you to agree to make it so. Homosexuals like to say they have no choice.That's the same as a murderer saying he had no choice, or an adulterer saying God "made them that way". It's a common excuse to avoid any responsibility for their choices.

Answer 4

Heron, I don't claim to know what causes feelings of same-sex attraction. I think the choice comes in when you decide to act on those feelings. God has ordained our procreative abilities to be used only in marriage between a husband and wife. Therefore, expression of sexuality outside of marriage, whether in a homosexual or heterosexual way, is wrong.

Answer 5

Homosexuality is a big sin according to our Holy Al Qur"an.Besides that if you have a homosex you will get a HIV disease.It is against with the Allah"s law.see Al A'raaf of prophet
Luth history paragraph 80 and 81

Answer 6

It's a "sin" because the Bible says so. That's the crux of Christians' entire argument. Homosexuality cannot possibly be a natural inclination, because that would go against the very "word of God." Not saying I agree; just saying what they believe.

Answer 7

I find it hard to believe that someone in this venue would compare homosexuality to murderers and criminals. (each being comparable because you say they are all "choices"?! )

A good source for some "food for spiritual thought" might be http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian .... check it out.

"..rightly dividing the Word of truth." 2 Tim 2:15.

Keep in mind, even if you believe the Bible is without error, doesn't mean you understand it.

Answer 8

The first question is whether or not it is wrong that answers your question.

If it is not wrong than it is not a choice (I don't choose to be hetero i just am)

However, if you believe it to be wrong then from the moment you realize that it becomes a choice to live in a gay lifestyle.

All other arguments hinge on whether or not its wrong. For instance, Murder is wrong you can be born with a predesposition that makes you violent that i don't have but as soon as you realize murder is wrong than it is a choice however predesposed or how ever right it feels for you.

I'm not saying whether or not it is wrong just stating that we cannont say whether it is a choice or not until we have made that decision

Answer 9

It's not just christians. Most people believe that homosexuality is a sin. In this country and around the world, every major monotheistic religion, Catholocism, Judaism, Islam, you name it, believes that sexual relations between people of the same gender is immoral and a perversion.

Homosexuality is a choice. You were not born homosexual, nor were you born heterosexual; you have no sexual awareness nor preference at that age. You were neither left-handed nor right handed, and you didn't have any other inherent preferences either. You couldn't even locate your genitalia, much less know what they were to be used for. Therefore, that is proof that you are not born homosexual.

Also, if you are not indoctrinated at school and taught that alternative lifestyles are normal, or if you are not abused as a child, or if you are not an early user of drugs or alcohol, and if you do not fall into a crowd of people who experiment with thier sexuality at a young age, chances are you won't be the slightest bit homosexual. During the child's formative years, they learn about gender roles in a non-depraved manner, and they generally grow up well adjusted and do not become gay.

Even if you disagree with my previous points, (at this point, you have already made up your mind and will not listen anyway) the fact is, neither "god" nor "fate" doomed you to desire same sex relationships, nor did anyone force you to go out and drink and socialize, or approach someone, begin a flirtation, and end up going home with them, nor did anyone force you to sleep with that person. Every step along that path is a choice. Just like drug abuse, every step along the way is a choice. Just like overeating, every step along the way is a choice. Just like choosing a life of crime, every step along the way is a choice. The fact is, you can blame no one but yourself for where you are in life and the choices you have made. Homosexuality and the gay lifestyle is very much a conscious choice. No one can force you to be gay, and you are not naturally gay nor are you born gay.

Heterosexuality is very much a choice too. I choose whom I flirt with, date, and from relationships with. I am not doomed to date women, I choose to. I was not forced by god to become straight. I was not straight at birth. In fact, most young boys stay away from girls because they like to hang around other boys, because they usually share so many interests. Thier choice to live a normal lifestyle is usually made by default, if no outside corrupting influence is at work. Of course, if they hear about homosexuality, and have natural curiosity, it can lead them down a series of choices which open up that world to them. Again, every step in that path is a choice.

By the way, the definition of "sin" is not "unforgivable blasphemy against God almighty", it simply means "mistake" or "error".
That is why sins can and should be forgiven.
Forgiveness comes when we acknowledge our errors and correct them, or accept guilt.

The choice to be gay isn't even that big of a sin; it's certainly not listed in the Ten Commandments. Disrespecting your parents is seen as a bigger sin, under Judaism and Christianity.

I am sure many people are now upset with me. That's just too bad, because this is supposed to be a forum for discussing alternative viewpoints, and my rhetoric is hardly hateful or bigoted.

Other answers given by those who differ from me say things like "God made homosexuals, therefore, it is not immoral". Actually, God allowed you to have free will. He didn't force you to be gay any more than he forced you to be a murderer, pedophile, or a womanizer. Your choices are your own. Using the above logical non-sequitor, I could then claim "God made rapists, therefore it is not immoral, God made pedophiles, therefore it is not immoral, God made Hitler, therefore he was a perfect sinless man".

Answer 10

By it being Un-Natural clarifies it therefore not available. Procreation is natural law for a male and a female. It is an abomination to God because he didn't create them to be that Way and also He made it clear, in the word of God, Adam and Eve,Husband and Wife and to be fruitful and multiply!

Answer 11

You can not believe what the bible says or you can believe what the bible says about it, I understand and do not judge you, but we all have sin in our lives, and we have to work on the area we sin in, and this would have to be Homoseuality with you, drinking and getting drunk is my weakness, but I have worked pretty hard with prayer to God to help me over come most of it, and he will take this away from you, if you really want to be right with God, and really don't want to sin.
In my church a gay woman came in went to church every day for a year, left her gay lover and is now married to a man, but she knew if she keep the faith and believed long enough, he would take if from her and he did.

anyone that wants to deceive someone can add some bible with some lies and make a false belief.