Bute question?

Question

So I have heard mixed answers to this and no I haven't called the vet to find out, what the real answer is so.....

How long would 2grams of bute on a 1100lb mule take effect where you get the upmost advantage of it. How long does it last too in a one time only dose?

My guys NEVER get sick nor do they EVER do anything to hurt themselves. But Stretch *my main man* is bucking again with his 5th saddle, vet checked and approved, so now I'm trying to see if its mental vs actual pain issues.

So i buted him at 300pm and rode him at 630-830pm to see. He is bucky at a lope only. He doesn't test out sore anywhere and the chiro isn't sure what to think of it either. I can hook this mule to cart and hes brilliant, you saddle him and you have a humongo jerk on your hands.

So tonight, no bucking, but I did pull out the crop too (he has a huge respect for it) and seemed to ease up more in his lopes and not so bunched up and high headed.

Was that enough time for the bute to work?

Arabian gal- lets see, 5 vets later from 2 states, on his 5th saddle, vets are stumped, been there done that. If anyone goes to the vet when theirs a problem, I do... This was an experiment not with bute but for mental vs pain, read again.

Tommy-hes never been solid under saddle, has moments of absolute brilliance then goes into movements of bucking fits. Last year he placed high in trail and WP at denver stock show, this year, hes buck, strung out and not himself.

He did have a pinched subscapular nerve and had loads of chiro treatments and loads of time off, so right now, trying to give him the benefit of the doubt to see if its pain issues still. At the vets and chiro, he NEVER tests sore with all their pressure tests and movements, so we really aren't sure whats going on yet.

I can hook him to cart, hes a gem, drives wonderful, you put a saddle on him and you have a monster. So thats why I think its pain and then if it is, then I want to take him to CSU for more.

TY guys to helped answer my questions, I never really have to give bute and hadn't forever and couldn't remember the peak of it.

Oh and Tommy forgot to answer- hes always bucky lunging, but its not a mad buck, its the full of pee and vinegar kind, and then he settles down. As far as bareback, I have ridden him bareback at a slowwww rate of speed in the arena because I'm not a good bareback rider and with mules its reallllllly hard, they have no shoulders and no withers.

I should also add that he does have lipomas that sit behind his shoulders. This new saddles *aussie* we pull behind those and it doesn't interfere with them. The vet checked this saddle too and thought it was the best fit imaginable for him. His lipomas are also smaller now after having time off and changing saddles, so the swelling has finally dissapated from those. They are not causing him problems currently.

BnB Stretch has mental issues no doubt lol. A small white compact car incessently throws him for a loop, not sure when he was beat about by one but he remembers.

He has had 5 yrs of poor saddle fitting, each time he was checked out fine only to figure a lipoma or something popping up. So yes, it very well could be mental too. It was to the point, I could bring a western saddle out and he was kicking the ground and mad, but could bring out the english and no problems. He knowssssssss!!!

Hes incredibly smart, thats what I love about him, maybe smarter than me at times lol.

labrat-- i'm saving for a treeless, plan on getting it in the spring ;) i agree, 6th saddle coming lol. At least if it doesn't help, it can go to my son's mule or the others.

Thanks KB, I'm going to ask my vet to go ahead and refer us to CSU, just want to save up some money before we head there. I think we are ready, tried everything imaginable, now to go to the big dogs. This mule is so talented and when hes on his game, he places really well in the shows. So I really don't want to give up his saddle work.

halflingers lol, what a cool mule!! priceless!

Answer 1

should be.... i'm not 100 percent sure on this so dont quote me but i think the onset time is 30-45 minutes to an hour. i'm going to try to find a scientific source..

edit** merck veterinary manual says 1-2 hours peak onset with effects lasting 12-24 hours. can be safely dosed every 8 hours in horses with normal kidney function

Answer 2

I've done a "bute test" with my horses because of their saddle issues and unrideability - and, yes, the bute test is a veterinary tactic to figuring out if there is actual pain or the horse is just being an idiot. It is an experiment.

Basically, you give the horse bute for 3-5 days, and see if it makes a difference.

Bute takes about 2 hours to work, and lasts for 12 hours with anti-inflammatory affects, and will drug test up to 24 hours after it is given.

The bute test is to give the horse a high dose for the first day (2 grams AM & PM - the maximum an adult horse can tolerate), and then a low dose for the rest of the time (1 gram AM & PM), weaning down to a 1/2 dose on the last day before taking it off. (1/2 gram AM & PM)
This is for horses, though - I don't know, do mules tolerate bute the same or not? Make sure you ask your vet about that one.
If the horse acts better while buted, then there's a problem with pain/ inflammation in a bony structure. Bute doesn't help with nerve issues, so, if like my horses, there's a possibility that a nerve is involved, the bute test probably won't yeild much results.

If you are going to do the bute test, do not change anything you do - don't change the tack, don't bring the crop if he respects it,because you'll not see the true results then.

Both of my horses improved slightly on the bute test, but their sides &back were still no-fly zones, which I am fairly certain is because of nerves. In them, I was told if the spine is crushing a nerve somewhere, the bute could have taken away some of or most of that inflammation which accounted for their improvement, but didn't help the nerve itself to hurt less.

In my buckskin, they suspect a bundle of of nerves behind his shoulder recieved the damage, because he cannot be touched in that area on both sides - basically where the flap of the saddle would sit down to the girth. And in my gray mare, it is suspected that there is a pinched nerve or spot of nerves near where the cantle would have sat on the left side.

Answer 3

Mules metabolize drugs a little differently than horses. Usually a little faster thanks to the hybrid vigor. And depending on the severity of the pain, you may see results 1 hour after the bute is given or maybe not until 3-4 hours after. If the mule got the medication on an empty stomach the bute will absorb faster and better.

From a training point of view - I think he is just used to bucking. If you have gone through 4 saddles and this is the 5th - either he has serious back issue (ones that should result in lameness in the back end) or he realizes that he can get out of work and get extra attention that way. If he had back problems, the crop would not have made such a big difference - at least not so big a difference that he was stretching at the lope and dropping his head.

I think the dose of bute was fine. And if it were me, instead of buying another saddle and getting jerked around with treatments that may or may not work, I would find a vet clinic that can do a nuclear bone scan. Both soft and hard tissue. It costs a bit - but it is a fast way to find an answer.

Good Luck!

Answer 4

Plenty of time for the bute to work. However, has your vet ruled out EPM or mouth issues. I've had several horse's this year at my clinic with bucking issues. I took one look at the horse's mouths, and even though they were floated properly, there were teeth that were in fact inverted and growing back into the nasal passage and into the jowel which can cause severe pain.

Also, don't forget to check eyes and ears regularly. My old donkey DOC would buck and sure enough had mites in his ears.

And a little tip for bute....put the doses' on both sides of his meaty rear. Not only will it be put to work faster, but bute has sometime been known to have an epidural effect...where it'll take only to one side, and not the other.

Answer 5

I've heard wonderful reviews of BL Solution from several people, including one who is involved in horse rescue and often has old horses. Everyone seems so thrilled with this stuff that I bought some and am going to try it on my really really old horse when his bute runs out (he gets it daily). It has devils claw in it, I think, comes in both a liquid and a pellet. I brought it up to my vet, and she just said to make sure he is not on both bute and this at the same time, since it is a bute alternative, you don't want to be double dosing.

Answer 6

I had a gelding that needed bute , it seemed to take 1- 1 1/2 hours for it to start working on him. It lasted about 4 -5 hours for him. That's all I can tell you.

Answer 7

Not sure about the dose rate, but if it is the correct dose the time sounds about right based on previous horse experience. How much faith do you have in your chiropractor? Years ago I went to a 2 day dressage school where another students horse spent the whole day with it's head in the air, much to his riders despair. The instructor was at a loss and suggested a chiro, which happened that night. The following day the horses head was low and it was relaxed enough to learn a lot.
Until then I thought all chiropractors were quacks, but I figured there is no placebo effect for a horse so I visit one regularly myself now. However, for horses and humans, some are a lot better than others.
An alternative may be a treeless saddle, the type that are rather like riding bareback but with the benefit of stirrups. Do you check he has no skin pinching under the girth? (Sorry, no offence meant but sometimes it can be the simplest things that baffle us.)

Answer 8

Mule 3 hours is definately enough time for Bute to work. It usually takes effect in about the ame amount of time it takes for tylenol to help humans... 30-45 min. I usually gave it to my mare about 45 min before i was going to start grooming and saddling up. It alsways worked well and this was the powdered kind. The paste I haven't use din literally 6-7 years. lol So I'm not sure as to it's absorbtion time. Could it be a combinations of mental AND actual pain? Like maybe he's a drama queen like my mmonster... er i mean mother-in-law?? He has a wee little problem but lets his mind over exagerate it to where he's just in massive amounts of pain? Maybe that's why chiro and vet can't really find anything, he's a drama queen! lol that or maybe a hypochondriac?

edit i adminstred he powder one of 2 ways either mixed with a hanful of grain and apple butter ot i would put it in a large syringe with warm water and shake it up really good. then squirt down throat

Answer 9

I think it should be long enough.
My horse doesn't react to bute very well, and he is usually really colicy after he has it.
We switched him to a thing called DC-Y. It's a really good bute alternative. It has helped him much more then bute has.

They have it at Valley Vet Supply.
Sorry I don't have to get the link.
Check it out. =]

Answer 10

2 grams is 1100lb horse dose of Bute, however how are you administering? Intervenus? Pills, crushed, paste? If you inject in muscle or subcutaneous he's going to be irritated and hurting and possibly get an ulceration. There are dangers for just a lameness test. Bute stays a long time in the horses system and gives lots of side effects that are pretty nasty.-----*Here's a good article ---Don't use Bute in situations where the horse is--or could become--dehydrated, such as during an endurance race, three-day event, long trailer ride, etc., Dowling says. "I ride endurance horses, and they always have a degree of dehydration after a race. I never use Bute after a competition."

Consider other pain relievers. "The other available NSAIDs are all less toxic than Bute and can be used judiciously when the horse has recovered," Dowling says. "Flunixin meglumine (Banamine), ketoprofen (Ketofen), and vedoprofen (Quadrisol 100, available in Canada, but not the U.S.) all stay in the bloodstream a much shorter time than Bute. However, they all accumulate at sites of inflammation, giving you effective therapy for 24 hours for musculoskeletal pain. Because there is less drug in the blood, there is less drug affecting the kidneys and GI tract. They don't accumulate to high levels because of saturation of the elimination mechanisms. The other benefit is that these drugs are all cleared faster and are less likely to result in positive drug tests--very important for someone in a 'no drug' sport. Mules are cantankerous at times and hopefully thats all his bucking is about. My Dad trained Mules to pull combines in the Washington Wheat hills and valleys, way long years ago! Had to bring those bad boys in and retrain every Spring! good luck!

Answer 11

Presume it was given orally which takes 2-3 hours to be absorbed (half hour if intravenous) and doesn't take effect for 3-5 hours because it has no effect on already produced prostglandins - just prevents more being produced. So until the body breaks down the existing prostglandins, the inflammation (and therefore pain) is still present. Full breakdown of prostglandins already in the body can take up to 12 hours.

Stupid questions probably, but does Stretch buck when you lunge him in a saddle? Have you tried riding in a bareback pad?