What areas of life does feminism not belong in?

Question

I became interested in feminism because I was born in the Middle East and witnessed the injustice women went through because of their gender. Women receiving different legal punishments based on their gender, not being allowed to become judges or hold high positions. Sexual assualt/rape/molestation not being taken seriously. Marital rape having no meaning. Men having the right to have 99 wives while women would get stoned to death for infitality. A female witness only counting as a half of a witness....the list goes on and on. Feminism is what I consider is needed for these countries to bring equal basic rights. This to give women options and freedoms. However, ever since I got on this forum, I have realized the serious need for a separation of feminism (equal legal rights) and personal relationships, pretty much as necessary as separation of state and church, as feminism has become a religion in some cases, attempting to control every aspect of one's life w/o invitation. Thoughts?

Vegan: As a woman, I have the right to decide whether I want run the **** out of my husband and have him wear my skirt or become the obedient/submissive wife--it's my personal decision. Not any of feminism's business to judge or attempt to evaluate what I do with my personal life.

No feminist is going to tell me how to dress (in the name of stopping "objectification" of women), how to run my household (in the name of modern women need to achieve outside of home), what kind of lifestyle (in the name of housewives are oppressed)my relationship to my husband (in the name of men/oppressors shouldn't be in charge, all home chores need to be distributed equally) ...these are personal decisions every woman makes for herself...no religion or ideology will ever be running my life.

Not all feminists are this way, but I have read my fair share of craziness on here to make this statement.

Rio: You are one of the non-judgemental, consistent feminists which I have great respect for.

Baba: I consider you a true feminist whom I have great respect for, so this is certainly not for you either. Too bad I can't post private emails and haven't saved the judgemental questions posted by self pro-claimed "feminists" who do what I mentioned above.

Ellesar: I don't hate feminism. I consider myself as one and I have and will always be thankful for its achievements and having put me where I am today with all the opportunities and equal rights. What I hate is an ideology becoming a religion. I hate religion and limiting options/personal choices for women. I'm a career woman, but I also get upset when housewives are looked down upon...I feel passionately about a woman's right to choose!

Answer 1

The simplest thing I can say is that I have the right to choose for myself and in my situation. I am less political than many and more realistic than most. I come first. Ideologies like Feminism come second. I don't do as any group dictates but when I agree with the group they are lucky to have me. So, feminism should not be a woman's focus; she should be her own master. That sounds very feminist, doesn't it?
C. :)!!

Answer 2

If applied correctly, feminism can have its place in a personal relationship as well. Personal relationships are about give and take, and not just one side giving and one side taking, both need to give and take. I would despise being in a relationship where I wasn't able to have a say in decisions and always having to defer to the man despite my knowing what will be the best thing to do in a situation. One person should not have complete authority over the other in a loving relationship(unless it is the parent and child relationship). There is nothing in either gender that makes them inherently inferior to the other when it comes to the interactions in a personal relationship. If I'm more knowledgeable in money matters, wouldn't it make sense that I would be the one to make the decisions, or should it be the "dominant" person that should be making the financial decisions, despite the fact they don't know what they are doing? That isn't right. People have their own strengths and weaknesses, and your partner should be complimenting them, not overpowering you in all things despite the fact that you will be stronger in some areas than him.

I don't understand what you mean by this:

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I would like to understand that a bit more, I don't want to make a mistake in assuming what you mean when you are actually saying something else.

Answer 3

I see your point. It's a tough line to draw though as your own question points out. You discuss issues of domestic violence and marriage which do fall under the heading of personal relationships. If feminism is not to have any say about personal relationships, how do these injustices stop?

And certainly you can look to the courts to give women better legal standing so they can fight back when these things do occur. Still, there is much to be said for stopping problems before they start.

Answer 4

Feminism (using the term loosely) has never been needed in any area of anyone's life. Many dictionaries define it in terms of being about sweetness and light and reasonableness. And all feminits have sweet gently-fragranced farts, no doubt. The feminit cult wears a human mask but peel it away and all you seem to find is naked hate and hypocrisy.

Feminitism is a fraud masquerading as truth. Read some of Erin Pizzey's books about the way the feminista operates. Erin was a caring and courageous woman who was victimized and had death threat directed against her and her family for standing up to the feminista fanatics.

Those who are concerned about cruelty in the Middle East are not really feminits, they are humanitarians.

Answer 5

Wild how you came from a country where men told you how to dress (in addition to all the other things you list), and become a feminist (pardon the sloppy phrasing), and encounter feminists who tell you how to dress!

The other day, in one of Flying Horse's questions, I stated that I do not self-identify with any label or group, because all groups (or subsets of groups under a label) will, eventually, become hypocritical and do thing counter to the agenda they espouse.

But that is addressing a comment in your question, not the question.

Many, if not ALL the aspects of middle eastern cultures that you list, while they could be feminist issues, are, by my (and the UN's) definition HUMAN RIGHTS violations. Of course, it has been difficult for the UN to intercede, because of the increasingly pivotal role the middle east occupies in world politics. That, and Muslims can be pretty touchy (just lightening the tone, a touch).

American feminism is starting to lose focus, mainly because so many of their goals have been met, in this country, and most western countries. Just like in my answer to F.H., we have a group whose main purpose (equality) has mainly been achieved, but the machine marches on. Just like a military force, with no enemy on the horizon, it turns on the people it is supposed to defend. All ideological groups do this, eventually. The ideology becomes something you MUST eat' sleep, live, and breathe... you must support the agenda at every step, or YOU become the one to be oppressed/persecuted by this group that is supposed to be fighting for freedom and equality.

All that aside, dogma (and it most certainly IS dogma) is rarely actually good for anyone.

So, I suggest that feminism needs to go away, in favor of humanism. Sure, women will still be cheated, screwed, and exploited, but in the same ways that men are open to being cheated, screwed, or exploited. No system of law or authority is perfect, and can never be. The freedom of America is not the government protecting every individual the same. That is communism or socialism. The freedom we talk about in America is (was supposed to be) that everyone is as responsible for themselves as anyone else, and if you get screwed, well, tough luck, Jack (or Jill).

Personally, I believe that women are as capable of sticking up for themselves, of doing for themselves, of achieving for themselves, just the same as a man. (assuming there is no network to stand on their necks, or equal oppression, even)) If they are taken advantage of at a job, in a relationship, by another human at all, and it is not a criminal offense, well, that's on you.

In short, dogma is not principle. Many of these reactionary crazies confuse their agenda with some god-given rightness, and that is no damn better when they do it as when it was done to them. Justice never means payback. Reparations only apply in war. Once any social group achieves social equality, there is never any payback, they obtain the opportunity to get crapped on like everyone else. Equality usually means LESS protection, not more. Protection is for subordinates, not equals.

Anyway, I'm sorry if that is all over the place.

What areas of life does feminism not belong in? All of them. Women are equal and should be treated so. Of course, this only easily works in humanitarian cultures. As for the middle east, well, I'm not sure what the solution is there, short of wiping out a whole culture, and that is no solution at all.

PS: I am noticing more and more middle eastern men who decide they don't want that life for their family, so they get the heck out. So, maybe all that will be left in 100 years will be the barbarians? Bah, that's no good, cuz the Russians (and the US) will still sell them guns. Wish I knew the answer.

Answer 6

Lioness, you have sort of answered your own question.

Feminism should never dictate to anyone, man or woman, how they should act, feel, think or live. Feminism should encourage women to do what makes them happy -not what will further thier cause. Feminism should encourage legitimate education, not propaganda and manipulative blame.

I think the 'movement' needs to rethink its agenda and motives. I too have read a lot of insane things here but I have also seen level headed and reasonable feminists. Why can't the feminist organizations realize they are out of touch with reality and with what women really want. (Kind of like the Catholic Church, although that is another thing for another day)

Answer 7

I think you hit the nail on the head. It's important to speak out against gross injustice but some of the things that are complained about by some are just...I don't know what to say. One person made a comment that women don't have their own culture and I just didn't understand that. There needs to be a balance in personal relationships. Certainly, it shouldn't be based solely on gender but to I think the that the feminist movement has accomplished what it set out to accomplish in the western world. We have full legal rights, we have access to opportunity and we have the ability to make choices and participate in the public sphere. Everything else is just a pipe dream in my opinion. Trying to eradicate chavanism is like trying to eradicate racism - its never going to happen and painting all men with the same brush is just as bad as painting any other group with the same brush and it the exact same thing that necessitated a feminist movement in the first place. We should concentrate on people with real issues that really affect their access to opportunity and not waste time complaining about small things that are never, ever going to change. The world isn't fair and there are always going to be double standards no matter how much legislation is passed or how loudly anyone complains.

Answer 8

To me, feminism has always been about equal legal rights and fair opportunities. Half the personal relationship type stuff posted in this forum belongs in the relationship forums---dating, marriage, divorce, etiquette, etc.

What happens in this forum is not representative of what is mainstream in America, in my opinion. There are too many people here posting hate and---surprise surprise---others are constantly put on the defensive over issues that have more to do with individual shortcomings or relationship breakdowns than the feminist movement. That is just a convenient target. A women, for example, who gets bent out of shape because a guy opens a door for her is out of line and ill-mannered and a guy who doesn't hold a door open when someone else is near it---man, woman or child---is also ill-mannered and out of line. This is not feminist issue, it's an etiquette issue that is mislabeled. It's about people being snotty and blaming their negativity on feminism.

Answer 9

Quoting a response that got me Best Answer elsewhere:

"This is one of the biggest disagreements I have with many feminists. If "equality" is defined in terms of equal opportunity and access in the public sphere, including education, employment, the political process, property, and basic goods like health care, I am a feminist. But the idea of an ideology trying to dictate "equality" in every aspect of the culture at large strikes me as sheer arrogance and folly."

I'd add, attempts to reshape private institutions and private relationships according to ideology have been the hallmark of totalitarian movements like Marxism and Fascism.

The only way to impose such things would be through over-reaching government.

And my biggest pet peeve with feminism: slogans like "the personal is political" and rejecting the private-public divide on the one hand, while relying on the distinction, "the right to privacy" when it comes to issues like reproductive decisions!

Answer 10

I think that feminism must be careful to stop at equal access to jobs and education and legal rights for both genders. Manipulating public policy to reward some women for making the "Liberated" choice and working for pay while raising children is too invasive for my tastes. I think that gender relations within relationships will always be marked by agreat deal of biology and reproductive evolution, and little can be done about this. However, just because dating relationships are marked by sexism, this does not mean that professional relationships must be. I think it's a tricky thing to balance, but women can have equal rights and be equally valued in society without anyone proclaiming marriage or SAHMs as "undesirable". Japan comes to mind as a country with a good balance in that aspect.

Women have had an unspoken agreement for centuries not to degrade and insult other women who have chosen employment instead of marriage, or who choose fulltime housewifery instead - feminists broke that contract, and took sides against a large number of women by claiming that some of us are too deluded to understand that paid work is the only valuable way to spend time. To say that housewives are stupid or valueless, is a matter of private opinion, and not a good way to form social policy and laws. What happens in a private household, assuming no one is being beaten or abused, is not a matter for "public" feminism.