Who thinks, as I do, that science is a beautiful form of black magic?

Question

feltrex, I am a scientist. I suggest you do a little more thinking before you do more writing. You were baited, though I wasn't trying to bait you. There are many examples throughout history where the two ideas in question cross paths. For example, Pythagoras's mathematical ideas were developed for a mystery cult he belonged to, a cult whose practices would be called 'black magic' by those of the Abrahamic system.

Answer 1

I must say, Mr. Voozaak, I am surprised at the magnitude of emotion displayed in a few of the responses. Actually, what surprises me the most is the degree of ‘ad hominem’ psycho-babble. Your question was indeed a bit unorthodox, but nonetheless interesting and worth some thought. That is why I cannot understand some of the responses. Take Marc Ladewig, who writes above me. He has the audacity to invoke nazism, as if such an analogy had the remotest relevance here. He also speaks of INTENTION in science. What on earth could that mean? There are no ‘intentions’ of science strickly speaking. If there were intentions of science they would rest in the subjective hearts of humans. And quite frequently, contrary to what Mr. Ladewig thinks, scientific intention can be vexed with fuzzy thinking and gross emotionalism (like Mr. Ladewig’s rather tasteless pointer to vonnegut).

Answer 2

You may claim you were not trying to bait some of us, but you've done a good job. Black Magic is not beautiful. Ever. The older I get the more convinced I am that Science, Rationality, and what we see as "fact" are one useful tool we have dumped a whole toolbox for and in that sense we are not more advanced than our ancestors.

The perfect examples would be Bigfoot and Yeti, who are, respectively, Forest and mountain Spirits. My sister went from rationalistic denial of ghosts to telling me not too long ago a house I stayed with her in for a year in '76 was definitely haunted. I've gone from an adolescent interest in ghosts to immense respect for the lore passed down in ballads and stories -- I've heard tales of dreams of the Departed with real business being transacted -- and irritation with shows like Ghost Hunters because they are not dealing with the unfinished business of it at all.

Robert Graves, who I love to cite although I admit he was a crackpot sometimes, differentiated between prosaic truth and poetic truth. He's absolutely right. And you can talk about prosaic and poetic consciousness.

I don't believe Magic is poetic consciousness, I believe there are several distinct magical consciousnesses, which tend to be more valid when allied with the poetic than the prosaic. Thus yeti or bigfoot may be a new ape, or a bear, or a person not properly seen. There are stories of attacks by these creatures, and I don't think it is important what the facts behind these attacks are, as opposed to the truth that these attacks have happened, whatever the explanation, and should be watched out for. The stories, I do not believe, have one explanation -- and I believe we are hurting ourselves by insisting on one without talking about the damage which is quantifiable and should have a higher priority.

Science is a process. As Rudolf Steiner pointed out, it reflects a form of consciousness which in Ancient (Classical) times was new and highly spiritual.

At the same time, anyone who has studied a craft such as art understands that "When you think you know what you are doing you are artistically dead". It is just too easy to go through the motions of something you know will work without making sure it does. That's why I have a big problem with atheism and with publications such as the Skeptic. Thought is too important too assume that any process is perfect.

When Clarke issued his law on the subject, he was talking about effects. At the same time, even, some very knowledgeable people were studying magical consciousness -- and no I do not necessarily mean Margaret Murray or Sir James Frazer who Graves owes so much to. On the simplest possible level, Alan Garner's childrens' books like The Weirdstone of Brisingamen, the Moon of Golmrath or Red Shift dramatize the split between an older magical consciousness and a modern scientific one very well. Scholars like Mircea Eliade have discussed it as have spiritual teachers like Idries Shah (an influence on Doris Lessing's futurist books) and George Gurdjieff.

Science can be magical. Magic is something distinct, however, and black magic is never beautiful. You may not have intended to bait us but you succeeded.

Answer 3

Science is one way to achieve change through willpower. It acts mostly indirectly (through devices that are extensions of our will), but a move is being made to liberate it from that limitation (or rather to make us, the observer, into those instruments. Quantum Theory, Digital Physics, etc. are a good start)
In the end, science is a good system of magic, that is quiete explainable (at least to someone with a few BS degrees!) and it Works!
Any good magician (i.e. a person who obeys his will, not someone who obeys that of the others/that of nature.) will try hard to be a knowledgeable scientist too.

In Love and Light.

Answer 4

I don't think science is a beautiful form of black magic. Science don't believe in magic or fantasy. Science (from the Latin scientia, 'knowledge'), in the broadest sense, refers to any systematic knowledge or practice. In a more restricted sense, science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on the scientific method, as well as to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research.

Answer 5

Science used for wrong purposes is black magic and science used for good purposes is white magic. Magic is an observation that cannot be explained by the known laws of science.

Answer 6

Science is a method of proving repeatedly a recurring effect / occurrence by verifiable means without outside interference. Where do you get the notion that it has anything to do with magic?

Black magic is working with low frequency energies, communicating with the dead, working with lower spectrum entities, etc. and has nothing to do with science. (it is a terminology which carries very little bearing, as magic itself is neutral, the specifics intentions of which are solely decided by the practitioner, whether they are to be helpful or malicious)

I suggest you do more reading before forming such callous opinions. "The fool who professes creates even more guesses." Misinformation really isn't worth spreading. :)

Answer 7

I think you are quite wrong. Magic is the supposed manipulation of some imaginary beings or forces, e.g. demons, gods, etc. Science is based upon reality , not such fantasies. Science learns natural laws and uses them to achieve its ends. Magic says there there are imaginary things controlling nature. Black magic deals with evil imaginary creatures or forces.

Answer 8

i would agree with feltrex. in this demon haunted world, to quote carl sagan's work, where ill-advised superstition informs public policy and fuzzy thinking and gross emotionalism prevails, what possible good can come from a scientist baiting the public with tricky questions? though science is not clear, and in its subtleties, not straightforward, this is not the INTENTION of science. the intention is to be simple, clear and therefore elegant.

though you claim to be a scientist, i refer you to the lines that close mother night, kurt vonnegut's novel of a man who played as if he were a nazi to spy upon the nazis. you are what you pretend to be. what are you pretending to be, posing such a question as this? if you are interested in obtaining data that the general public is lacking in basic scientific knowledge, i can assure you, that fact is already well known.

by the way, i'm not a scientist. i only strive to begin my spiritual search informed by the best science i can understand. i revere clarity of thought and straightforward honesty. don't tell me our young scientists are becoming sarcastic with the facts!!!!!!!!!

http://www.odysseusepicmythhero.com

Answer 9

Magic is supposed to be Science that we just don't understand yet.

Science in itself is not black or white - but how it is used might be.

Answer 10

Boy, did you stir up the hornets nest with the word "black".

But didn't you get it backward? (snicker, snicker)

Isn't black magic an uninformed version of science?