Talk about irony? Breaking news.?

Question

Court documents are saying that Marc Crawford pointed at a picture of Moore during the intermission and said, "he must pay the price."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/12/05/nhl-bertuzzi-moore-lawsuit.html

I say who cares, I wonder if Hartley hinted for Moore to get agressive with Naslund in the prior game. Tomato, tamoto.

288- I think Orca Entertainment, Crawford, Brian Burke etc are all co-defendants.

Hockey4ever- BIG difference between a rumour and a court sworn document.

AMDD- Well, I am sure that Lindy Ruff was told the same types of things during his career as a player and probably has said them as a coach. I would pretty much guarantee it. How do you feel now?
If you think that Ruff never told Rob Ray to make somebody pay a price during his career then you truly are blind to the facts of life.

Mike, I am not comparing them. I am saying that it has happened all the time. Coaches telling players to target other players. Do you think it was an isolated incident? Avalanche have done it too. Hate to fickin' break it to you. Any different from the whole Draper/Lemeiux incident, bounty and all? NO. Exactly the same except in the ensuing brawl next game, nobody turtled and got fell on and broke their neck. EXACTLY THE SAME. That is just ONE incident I can recall and I knew you could relate to.

hockey4ever- If you think for a minute that Moore didn't know what was going on, that he was being persued, then you are a fool. He had AMPLE time to turn around a be a man, instead he went the coward route, if he turned around and fought, it would not have ever been an issue. Moore is a turtle and not cool enough for my turtle club. Turtle turtle.

AMDD- Now you are just being nonsensical.

Hockey4ever- Good comeback. You don't always use capital letters to start a sentence and you color outside the lines.
sea how stuppid that soundds?

Mike, forget the Naslund thing, I was being hypothetical. I am not talking about the Lemieux hit (which was still bad), I am talking about the next game after that one, where there was a bounty on the Avs players and the "Hockeytown Brawl" broke out.

Also Mike, driving his head into the ice? It was the weight of all the players piling on. It is not like he took his head and piledrove his face into the ice.
Besides, like I said, if Moore mans up, it is all for not.

Hockey4Ever- You should stick to your field hockey-better suits y'all.

Mike-Come on, be realistic. Stop looking at it just as an Avs fan. Moore covered up like a turtle. He wasn't caught by surprise. He knew it was coming. He chose to be a wimp and look where it got him.

Mike- Look at the video evidence- Beruzzi's mouth doesn't stop. Think he was just saying hello? Yeah, he was caught totally off guard. LOL. Suckered indeed, had no idea what was coming.

Hockey4ever- thought you were dome? LMAO. Since Moore was a coward and would not turn around and be a man, Bertuzzi punched him in the side of the head and his momentum carried him to propel on top, since Moore was skating away instead of stopping. The punch is not what broke his neck. Glad to see you have flip flopped from a MUGGING at least. Moore was very aware.

Hockey4ever- Naslund is a skill player-not a fighter, why didn't Gretzky fight his own battles?
I'm not a Bertuzzi fan, I'm not a Canucks fan, I am just a realist.

For cripes sake, it is so clear, Bertuzzi is saying come on, let's go, let's do it, come on, at one point he even tries to spin him around, grabs him by the left shoulder, come on pu$$y, let's go. If that is not a challenge then I don't know what is.
Don't tell me that you honestly think that a challenge was not issued. Asinine.

Mike, there was absolutely momentum. Could not have happened that way if they were not skating and standing stationary.

Mike- Yeah, they should take major penalties in a tie game instead? Hate to tell you but a blow-out game is the BEST time to exact revenge.

Hockey4ever- Was the case not thrown out by a Denver judge because he thought Vancouver served as the better venue? I could be wrong. If I am not then what the hell does American Law have to do with the price of tea in China?

Mike- What a pi$$ poor example that is.

Answer 1

Irony is spineless behavior getting a spinal injury.

Moore turns around and drops the mitts like a man, we aren't even listening to these bleeding hearts still crying. Unfortunate as it may be.

"Snuck up behind him" haha. Tip-toed did he Mike? You blind Avs fans are something else.

Watch it again, and this clip starts WELL after Bert challenged him. He was yelling at him to get him to turn around, then started pulling on his jersey AND Moore knew he was going to have to fight BEFORE that game, Vancouver let him know in print and on tape
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz9RE9RGrVY

*let me guess, the Colorado paper maybe? lol

Answer 2

I think you can take it for granted Moore was going to get one whether Crawford said anything or not.
I was in Vancouver just before it happened. Seems like about 2 million people in Vancouver knew it was going to happen. Read it the papers, heard it on the radio, a week ahead of time. You mean to tell me Moore didn't know he was about to get clocked when he was running away from Bertuzzi.
If you assume he would no longer be in the league, what has changed his present earning potential? He should be able to as much money now as he would have had the hit never happened. His medical expenses are covered by insurance so his only expenses related to the hit are his legal fees from these frivolous lawsuits, IMO.

Answer 3

It may or may not be true, but if it is this only reaffirms my conviction that he's a mindless Goon. I don't care if Mother Theresa told him to do it, how can anybody be so devoid of a conscience? "Be made to pay?" Who says that, a Death Sythe? No honorable man acts that way.

Bob- That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm sure it isn't an isolated incident, I'm simply saying it speaks volumes about one's character (Bertuzzi or otherwise) if they can be swayed that way, and furthermore, recind any responsibility for their actions. If anyone is spineless in this situation, its Bertuzzi for not chesting up like someone capable of intelligent thought.


Incudork- I'm totally imagining him standing there with a pie chart and a treasure map!


Erica- You bring up some good points, but that's also the basis of my argument. Yes, hockey has a potentially violent nature, and I agree that it was low of Bertuzzi to hit Moore after it was obvious he wasn't going to fight. I just don't agree that Moore was wrong for not "being a man" and fighting him. I know it would appear that Moore got called out, that Bertuzzi was up in his face, but the man refused to do it and ITS A GAME, not war, and even then cheap shots aren't fair. Mike is absolutely right, that's no different than me walking up to some schmoe on the street, taunting her, and then pulling her to the ground after she walks away from me. Nobody is going to say that girl deserved it.

Answer 4

I think irony is that there are people saying they think Moore's hit on Naslund was legal (in their opinion) and Naslund only got hurt because of the position he was in... Yet these are some of the same people who chided Randy Jones and Scott Hartnell for hitting players in vulnerable positions. Hmm, I smell double-standards. I'm not so sure that hit would have been ruled as legal in "the new NHL". Since there's "the new NHL" now though, why wouldn't the same people who made the "vulnerable position" argument, for the two Bruins players, make it for Naslund?

Anyway... To put it simply, my thoughts are that:
- Moore behaved cowardly by just skating away and refusing to fight.
- Bertuzzi behaved cowardly by hitting someone who refused to fight.

However, only one of those actions were illegal and caused the other player to sustain career-ending injuries. Though I think Moore behaved cowardly, his actions were not illegal and did not cause Bertuzzi to sustain career-ending injuries. Thus, because this was an avoidable incident, I think Moore deserved to be compensated as if the incident never occurred and Bertuzzi deserved to be punished for making the incident occur.

How much Moore deserved to be compensated and how much Bertuzzi deserved to be punished isn't up to me. I have my own opinion about it, of course... but I'm just trying to point out that everyone has their own opinion about this and they might not end up agreeing with everyone else.

Answer 5

Anyone who thinks Crawford and Burke were not involved in the Moore incident is ignoring the obvious. Bertuzzi went after Moore for a reason... and it went down in the worst possible way. That's hockey.

Answer 6

I don't know much about civil law, but I think Crawford will be added as a defendant now. I don't know if you can do that mid-trial though, or maybe Moore has to file another suit once this is over.

What I don't understand is, why is this in an Ontario court? I know Moore tried many jurisdictions, but how does Ontario come into play? NHL buildings in Toronto somehow makes it a legal jurisdiction...? I should stick to criminal law...

Actually, Bob, the article said that Crawford's not a defendant.

Answer 7

Hey mike, I think Bob was talking about how McCarty sucker punched Lemieux, not the hit on Draper. (Maybe he wasn't, but that seemed to make more sense) Regardless, Moore's a pu$$y for not fighting like a man, and Bertuzzi's a pu$$y for not facing him face to face, and then punching him. I truly believe that Bertuzzi's apology was genuine, but that' just my opinion. Hockey4ever or whatever, why do you have to attack a man's choice of beer? Even if you think it sucks, you don't say that to another man. That's like talking smack about someone's dumbass kid. You know they're retarded, you wish they knew they were stupid, but you can't really open your mouth and say something, otherwise you'd be deemed as an a.s.shole. By the way, what beer do you drink, Bob?

Answer 8

For better or worse, I've made my position clear in many previous questions.

Mikey,
Bertuzzi did not sneak up on Moore, he called him out on the ice for the entire building to hear (and video played during the assault trial proved this).
- Moore knew Bertuzzi was coming
- Every player on the ice knew Bertuzzi was going after Moore (several Avalanche players testified to this during the assault trial)
- not ONE Avs player stepped in until Bertuzzi took him down

EVERYBODY on the ice knew it was coming (hell, it had been in the press that Moore would get his due)


And while I think it's unfortunate that Steve Moore is in the condition that he is in today, or Bergeron, I still believe that retribution and hard hits should be part of the game.

Answer 9

Seeing that it was common knowledge that Crawford called for a "hit" on Moore it isn't breaking news. Bert is just taking the route of the Nazis in Nuremburg..."i was only doing what i was told." what's priceless is Bert crying like a little ***-raped girl a few days later "it's not in my nature" but hey it's all part of the sport right? instead of a gimmick shoot-out, how about a real shoot out with pistols...oh wait the NBA and NFL already do that.

Answer 10

I don't understand why people keep comparing the Moore hit on Naslund to the Bertuzzi hit on Moore. There was no bounty with Moore's hit, there was no injury with Moore's hit, there was no penalty on Moore's hit, and there was no suspension on Moore's hit.

The NHL looked at Moore's hit and said it was legal. There was no premeditation to hit Naslund. On the other hand; there was a bounty with Bertuzzi's hit, there was injury with Bertuzzi's hit, there were penalties on Bertuzzi's hit, and there was a suspension on Bertuzzi's hit (which was waaaay too short btw).

You just can't compare the two hits to each other.

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Bob, Lemieux's hit on Draper was not as bad as Bertuzzi's hit on Moore. Bertuzzi snuck up from behind, sucker punched Moore then drove his head into the ice. I might understand the sucker punch, but the driving of the head into the ice? Yeah, I know that pre-meditation is part of the game, but that doesn't mean Hartley did it with Naslund.

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Bob, if anyone had ample time to be a man it was Bertuzzi. Instead he went the spineless way and sucker punched Moore. Bertuzzi had plenty of time to tap Moore on the shoulder, turn him around, drop the gloves and start punching him. Instead while Moore was skating out of his zone and the Avs were developing a rush down ice he grabbed him by his jersey, punched him from behind (most cowardly), then proceeded to drive Moore's head into the ice like a golfer would continue his follow-through.

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Actually Bob, that's exactly what he did; he took Moore's head and piledrove it into the ice. It was the impact of the neck hitting the ground that broke the vertebrae. I distinctly remember reading that in the paper several days after the incident.

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Bob I don't look at it as an Avs fan, what good has Steve Moore done to the Avs in the last 4 years? I look at it neutrally. No he did not turtle, he turned up ice to help the rush and Bertuzzi hit him from behind. Like I said, if Bertuzzi grabbed Moore's jersey, turned Moore around, dropped the gloves and started punching Moore; Moore would still be playing today. At least turn the guy around, hit him face to face, no problem with looking someone in the face and then punching him. But to just hit the guy from behind?

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Bob; momentum carried Bertuzzi to drive Moore down to the ice? Momentum? Watch the video again, there was no momentum involved. He could have punched him and easily stopped there, but he didn't. Momentum had absolutely nothing to do with it.

And btw, hockey4ever (while he's said some stupid things) brings up a good point. They were down 8-2. When you're down 8-2, you take the loss like a man; it is no time to go around fighting and punching people. You got beat on the ice, so you're going to go and beat them with your fists; that's a very stupid way to approach hockey.

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Momentum did not cause the driving of the head into the ground, he could've stopped; he didn't. While a challenge may have been issued, that still does not excuse Bertuzzi for hitting Moore from behind. This happens all the time; you're getting nagged and getting nagged to fight some more, but you don't want to fight because you're already up 8-2, there's no point, you'd just be doing the other guy a favor; so you just ignore him. If he made any effort at all to get in front of Moore, or to turn him around; I would not have had any problem with it.

Let's say I had a gun and walked up to a guy on the street who also had a gun and told him to duel with me, but the guy refused and walked away, then I shot him in the back. Are you going to blame the guy who's lying with the bullet in his head because he refused to duel or are you going to blame me? Same thing with Bertuzzi's hit.

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Bob I disagree with you 100%. If a team is getting manhandled and then decide to beat the sh!t out of their opponents; that is extremely stupid and unsportsmanlike. Let me use another real world example. Let's say a pro chess player beats a regular Joe in 4 moves; then Joe gets up and punches the champion in the face just because Joe got smoked. Would you really approve of that?

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Both examples are actually spot-on to the situation.

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Which is exactly my point Bob; while Simon may not have deserved to go to jail, he should have gotten more than just a penalty and suspension. While Bertuzzi may not deserve to go to jail; he too should have gotten a much longer suspension, and a considerable fine from from the league. This is exactly what I'm trying to say. What Bertuzzi did was wrong to do in hockey and it's wrong to do in the public world. I am half-asleep and I have lost count of tildes, so I'm just going to go to sleep.

Answer 11

The NHL is going to have to change it's ways, or else the Crown will do it for them. A criminal conviction means no border crossing, so no pro hockey career.