How can "God's plan" be reconciled with free will?

Question

No cheating here, please. You have to at least TRY to make a reasonable, logical, sensible response. "My minister told me it's possible" is NOT a good argument. Feel free to use the bible, torah, or koran to back your argument up, since all are written about the exact same God.

If you're saying that God is perfect, then you can't say God has a plan, but man has free will to opt out. That would make God's plan imperfect, and thereby make God imperfect. If you'd like to suggest that God makes mistakes, that's fine. It'd clear the whole thing up nicely.

I'm actually curious to hear what is thought out there, so take a stab at answering.

I gotta dig Czech, Mr Ed, and Primahol. Czech says God is simply not perfect, and Primahol and Mr Ed. say there is no "free will," Mr Ed rather reasonably. Both postulations resolve the question nicely, since God not being perfect would allow his plan to be violated by free will and no free will would mean we are bound to follow a perfect plan.

I prefer to grasp at free will though, and I have proven logically to myself that God is not all-knowing or all powerful, so I prefer a mixture of the two ideas.

Can we all agree here that if the future is known, that means it HAS to happen the way it is seen, and therefore free will is out the window?

Answer 1

Instead of talking about God and man, let-s take the case of a man and a woman. The man is in love with a woman, and he sets out to win her love. He finds out what she is attracted to' he buys her flowers, he invites her out to the kind of place she likes to go' he behaves in a way that is attractive to her. In other words, he woos her. One day, she falls in love with him. Did she do so willingly? Of course she did. Did he win her? Of course he did. No imagine that man to be perfect, necessarily succeeding in all he does. So he will succeed in winning her heart, necessarily, but she will be won willingly é by her own free will.
God's plan for us is like that. He is absolutely sure to accomplish His plan in our lives, but He does it by working with our will. Actually I prefer to talk about freed will than free will. Because until we belong to Him our will is captive.
To be realistic, nobody on earth has absolute free will. But everyone does have the ability to make choices, and we are responsible for our choices. My choices are influenced by my circumstances, by my genetic makeup, by my environment (family, friends, society) etc.

Answer 2

I just knew some folks would put the following formula into their answer: 'God knows everything you will do, but you still choose your own path'.
I have yet to come across a more crumpled piece of anti-reasoning.
God 'knowing' what will occur necessitates inevitability. It means that you can never choose anything else. If the choice is still open until you choose, then God didn't really know at all.

This view of free will falls into the trap of the classic problem where a man is in a locked room, but doesn't know it is locked. He 'believes' he is free to stay or leave, but he can actually do nothing other than remain in the room. It is a problem of perceived free-will. Freedom to carry will out at any rate.

If a choice is fixed, free-will is an illusion. No theological gerrymandering can alter this.

Answer 3

God's plan, in my estimation, cannot be rationally reconciled with free will. I studied arguments for and against this for an entire semester. At the end of the semester, when I was supposed to understand how "The Church" resolved it, I didn't see. What I saw was flawed logic (which is, in fact, no logic at all). :)

Perhaps my capacity to understand was flawed. :)~

Edit:
~czek, just because you "expect" me to take chocolate doesn't mean you "know" I will. There is a difference.

~David, God knew that sin would happen before it happened, if you believe he is omniscient. So, there is no way he could have created us to have a loving relationship with him (as you suggest). He would have created us to do exactly what we did, give into sin. Your argument does not hold water.

~And to a couple of other people... he wrote the play. We will call it "God's Plan." He knew exactly what was going to happen, he wrote it after all. So, to perform "God's Plan," the actors play their roles as written. If they act in any way that is contradictory to what is written, it is not the same play any more. It then becomes "Actors' Rendition of God's Plan." It negates "God's Plan."

Answer 4

God's plan I donot know, if I did I would follow it.
It believe this theory:
Before we are born, we are in on the Other side or Home, where everything is perfect, no negativity, no darkness & all is love & peace. We then decide to incarnate to learn lessons to overcome negativity, & become more Godly.
This we have to incarnate for, becuase just as you cannot learn to drive by reading about it, you cannot learn learn about negativity by knowing about it on the Otherside where there's none. But we write a chart for ourselves,& incarnate (but forget it when we come here to not deceive the purpose) so as to choose the lessons we need to learn, for one person it might be patience, discernment,another forgiveness & so on...for example we'd create a situation with someone hurts us so then we learn about forgiveness,,we might ned to repeat this until we do.
This chart is in accordance with God's will becuase there are no forces of darkness on the Otherside & everything is God.
But here, the forces of darkness, can affect us & sometimes do, which we have to overcome, thus we have to say :Thy Be Done.
Then our will becomes one with God;s will. I think whenever someone is operating out of pure selfishness, greed or hatred, that;s not God's will.
Gid gave us free will to choose, good over evil.That is why we came here so we'd learn that by ourselves. Otherwise we'd have no choice & no reason to be here beause we could only do God's will & then all would be perfect & peaceful & love.

Answer 5

By the Rule of Inference. Transposition of the value of the one commandment into a second one, thus making it similar.

IF you say there's free will, then God is not in control, which is sacrilege. And IF you say there's no such thing, then how could He?

'Thou shall love God' can be the same by transposition as 'Thou shall love your neighbor'.

Like John put it:

If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: For he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment have we from Him, that he who loves God love his brother also.... 1 Jn. 4. 20-21

Simple logic? Maybe not. Isn't it written that God created man in His own image? So it turns out that if you love His creation, it's like if you loved Him.

See, you might not be able to decide whether to love God, whom you've never seen, but you can, IF you WILL, love what He made. Otherwise, you'd have to ask why would God make man in His own image, whatever that means?

Good luck!

Answer 6

I'm a little confused at what you're asking exactly but here are some thoughts. God's plan was perfect but sin messed it up. God wanted us to be in a loving relationship with him but then we sin so that disrupts the perfect relationship and the plan. But if we are saved then we can reconcile with God and go to heaven and live in his perfect plan.

Answer 7

Several philosophers have made answers to this to question and the one i prefer is St. Augustine's approach. Augustine postulated that God (an omnipotent all powerful God) does not see how people do. God does not merely watch what happens in the present God sees all at once. So God's vision of your actions and knowledge of them don't interfere with you making that decision anyways.

Answer 8

First: Who says that god is perfect? The Greek word for perfect that was used in the bible was often Telios, which doesn't translate well... "complete" is probably a closer translation. Second: If God knows all, he knows what choices we will make, and he could make the plan accordingly. If I offer you vanilla or chocolate, knowing that you'll take chocolate, does that mean I took away your free will to choose vanilla? Nope.

Answer 9

Maybe God does have a 'great plan' for us, but for right now I'm forging my own path and living my life as I choose. What God has in plan for me later down the road.....I'll find out when/if I get there.

Answer 10

God's plan includes allowing humanity to have free will.

Think of someone who is a master at chess playing against a beginner. The chess master plots all his moves from the beginning. He watches his opponent to see how he will move, and then he moves accordingly. A chess master can predict every move of the opponent because the master thinks ahead. The master allows the beginner to snag a few pieces but in the end knows that he will win the game.

God has complete sovereign control over all things. He is God. He would not be God unless He had complete power over everything. The bible calls Him the first and the last. This demonstrates His fullness. He is not only first, He is also last. This means He is ALL IN ALL. He is complete.

God allowed humans the freedom to disobey Him. In the garden of Eden, God placed two trees along with the other trees. This means He gave them a choice between two options. They could disobey by eating off the forbidden tree. Or they could reach a new level of existence by eating off the tree of life. This was their freedom. Both would have consequences.

God allowed them this choice, but like a master chess player, He also planned for this. He knew what would happen. He could have prevented our choice by removing the trees. However, He wanted humanity to make the choice. We chose to disobey God which brought about death.

God knew this and made a plan for redemption. Even in this plan for redemption, God did not remove humanities free will. Instead, God has made all humans (1) responsible and (2) accountable for their deeds. We are responsible meaning that we need to respond rightly. We are accountable meaning that God will judge us for what we have done. The bible teaches of a the Last Day or the Day of Judgment where every person who has ever lived will be judged for what they have done on earth.

God has given humanity free reign to whatever evil and darkness may pursue on earth. This will last for a time until God calls all humanity unto judgment. How did you use your God given freedom? Did you use it for good or evil?

God is God and nothing can stop Him. However, He has allowed evil things to happen because it is the only way greater good can happen.

Think of love. How can anyone love another person if they are stripped of all choice? We choose to love others by making a commitment to them. Love cannot exist in a world without free will. So, God has given us the freedom to love, but with this freedom also comes the freedom to hate. You cannot love your neighbor unless you can also be free to hate them.

Robots cannot love. Animals cannot love. Humans can love. We have this freedom.

So, God created a world where humans are free to love and hate. We are free to do good or evil. God's plan is to separate the good from the bad. Jesus foretold of the Last Day when He will judge all people for the evil they have done. Jesus will separate out the good from the bad. The good people will join Him to continue doing good. The bad will join evil workers and be destroyed. The ultimate goal is to create a world of love where everyone has the freedom to love and they love one another without any evil, hurt, or pain.

On a different note: The Bible, Torah, and Koran are not all about the same God. If they were, that God would have the same name in all three. You must understand that each God is different. If you were to study each book, you would discover that each says different things about who God is.

All religions may have similar ideas about morality, but they differ on the key ingredient: Who is God? This is such an important question. Think about your own identity. Can I believe anything I want about you? Can I sit and make things up about you and it be true? Do you respond to any name that a person calls out? Or do you have a unique person and identity?

Either God is truly unique with a unique identity, or He's just a figment of our imagination. God cannot be everything or else He would be both good and evil. If God were evil, then we are all hopeless. However, if God is good, then He will judge fairly. He will do what is right.

***Edit:

ABOUT FOREKNOWLEDGE AND FREE WILL: There is no conflict here. Just because God knows what a person will do doesn't mean that He controls what they will do. If God wanted to control a person, He would. We wouldn't be having this discussion. God would be controlling us. We would be more like an animal that acted purely on instinct without any ability to reason or make choices. However, we can reason and make choices.

Go back to the example of chess. Just because the chess master knew what moves the beginner would make doesn't mean the master made the moves for the beginner. The master plans ahead.

Here is another example: Tomorrow, you know that the sun will rise. Just because you know that information, does that mean you make it rise? Do you control the sun?

ABOUT FREE WILL:
Just to clarify, free will doesn't mean freedom to do anything we want. Obviously, you may want to flap your arms and fly but does that mean you can?

A "will" is not an ability. It is not the same as "can." I might say, "Later, I will goto the store." I want to go to the store. But does this mean I can? If I don't have any means to get there, then I can't. I desire to go, but can't.

Free "will" means that our heart is free to desire. We have the freedom inside to desire and imagine anything within our knowledge. We may will many things, but only do a few things. We are limited creatures. We can do very little but desire big things. This is an obvious contradiction humanity struggles with.

God did this for a reason. He wanted us to desire big and do big. But can you imagine if God had given everyone on earth the power and ability to do anything? The earth would have been blown apart years ago. We have been limited in our ability because all the evil must be sorted out first. The evil must be done away with so only good exists.

When only good exists, then God can give us the true freedom we were meant to have. We will be able to dream big and do big. We will be able to do all those great things we dream and desire. But such a responsibility can only be given to those who first pass the test. We must first prove on earth here and now that we can be ready to receive such a great gift.

Answer 11

god knows the past the present and the future
the free will is necessary to be saved o condemned
and all powerful god can great good from wrongs act.
god by definition can not make mistakes
but respect the free will (created by him) in all