Is a Prius really better for the environment then my truck?

Question

I was recently told that to make a hybrid, they mine the Nickel in Canada, ship to Japan to make the car, then ship the car to the US so someone can buy it. Then (and this is what really raises a questions for me), the car will only last 100,000 miles. I drive a gas guzzling Jeep, but I ONLY DRIVE 3000 MIES A YEAR, meaning in actual gallons, I burn far less than the average tree hugger who keys my car because I happen to have a "Six Less Bicycles" bumper sticker... but I digress.

Given the facts, aren't I loving mother earth by driving my Jeep into the ground at 3000 miles/year, as opposed to driving a disposable Prius, which looks green but doesn't sound like it really is. Plus my car is 'Merican, but that's just a side benefit.

Answer 1

Yes, the Prius is better for the environment than your truck.

For starters, the nickel thing is a myth. It's based on the Inco plant in Sudbury, Canada.

"In fact any damage occurred more than thirty years ago, long before the Prius was made. Since then, Inco has reduced sulphur dioxide emissions by more than 90 per cent and has helped to plant more than 11 million trees.

The company has won praise from the Ontario Ministry of Environment and environmental groups. Sudbury has won several conservation awards and is a centre for eco-tourism."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=417227&in_page_id=1770

Sure they ship the parts around, but that's true of any car.

Yes it's good to drive less, but again, that's true of any car. Driving a Prius for 3,000 miles a year is better than driving a gas guzzling Jeep for 3,000 miles a year.

It's also a myth that a Prius will only last 100,000 miles. In fact, my Prius battery alone is under warranty for 10 years or 150,000 miles.

And to address Jake, hybrid batteries are fully recyclable. Toyota is even looking into the possibility of remanufacturing them.

http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2006/fall/battery.html

Answer 2

There are so many factors here, it's hard to say. Your Jeep may be Merican (?) but not all the part are manufactured in the US. Many of them are shipped from other places, just like the Canadian-made parts of the Prius. Very few new cars are made to "go the distance" of over 100,000 miles. There's also the matter of who's driving the Prius. If it's driven 10,000 miles in the city it still pollutes less than your Jeep because (even if your Jeep gets 20 mpg, which is a generous estimate). So neither you, nor the hypothetical Prius driver deserves to feel superior.

Answer 3

It makes no sense for someone who drives 3000 miles to buy a Pruis. I drive 40,000 miles a year and am saving about $400 a month. I used to pay $550 a month and with the Pruis its $150 a month. I am saving more than what new batteries will cost me. Also, the batteries will be recycled. The lead acid batteries are also mined and shipped to the country where your Jeep was manufactured. Also, your gas guzzler needed lots more aluminum for the engine.

Answer 4

When you consider the impact of the mining operation the Prius, or any hybrid for that matter, isn't as "green" as a Hummer.

I did buy a hybrid for ecological reasons. I feel as if I've been conned. Perhaps the only green in a Prius is what was in the baggie sitting on the right seat of AL Gore's kid's when he got caught speeding in one.

Answer 5

The stupid greenies want you to believe it is better for the environment, but it uses a lot of battery power and when you charge the batteries you will be using electricity which of course puts off carbon and it still uses gasoline. And you will pay more for one of those ugly contraptions.

Answer 6

Plus just wait until they have to dispose of the batteries! Which landfill will they be thrown into "ACCIDENTALLY"!!!

Answer 7

Hi,

several points here, and many of the other replies state myths that just won't die. If you'd like the full, real answer, get comfortable and read on. I'll even break down the .08 cents per-mile cost of operation for a Prius. And all my costs are dealership prices, not corner garage numbers.

And I'm sure you'll appreciate that I'm only going to give you facts and you'll make up your own mind. Everything I lay out here can be independently verified with very little effort.

First of all, and no offense intended, some basic math...

If you drive 3000 miles a year and get 16 mpg (2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee V8 4X4 combined EPA numbers), you are going to use 150 gallons of gas.

If you drive 3000 miles a year and get 47 mpg (2008 Prius combined EPA numbers) use are going to use 64 gallons of gas.

So, each year, you will use 86 more gallons of gas, using just the EPA numbers. At $3.00 per gallon, that means $258.00 more in gas alone. May not be a big deal, but over 5 years that is $1290.00.

Next, yes, the nickel is mined in Sudbury, Ontario. At the end of this post is my information on that plant and why the myth that a Prius is worse than a Hummer is completely false and based on a poorly done, inaccurate study and a biased, incorrect college newspaper article.

As far as materials, parts, assembly, etc. coming from one place and going to another (from so-called "American" vehicles), check on where all Chryslers (Jeeps included) are assembled and where the parts come from. You'd be surprised that the parts and assembly for most Chryslers originate in either Mexico or Canada, if not overseas. Even the parts for the Chrysler Belvidere assembly plant outside Rockford, Illinois come from other countries. Look it up on the net or check the window stickers of Chryslers, Dodges or Jeeps on any lot for the true American parts content and assembly location.

Now, as far as the rest, what Toyota do you know of that only lasts 100,000 miles that hasn't been abused by the owner? And, common sense says that it would be all over the news if Prius were dying at 100,000 miles or if the nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery stack were failing right at the end of the 8 year or 100,000 mile warranty.

Let me break down the cost of operation for a Prius and compare that to what is honestly spent on any other vehicle.

The cost of operation of a Prius is about .08 cents per mile for each 100,000 miles of operation. I don't add in insurance, bank interest, or the cost of the vehicle itself, because all of those can vary based on each owner's situation. Add them to the .08 cents per mile amount.

A Prius will maintain 51-53 average if driven properly, meaning easing off the accelerator when coming to a stop and accelerating like there is a egg under the accelerator and trying to roll the egg out, not crush it. In other words, driving defensively and learning to get the most out of the hybrid drivetrain.

As far as the cost to operate a Prius over 100,000 miles:

- There is no steering belt or steering pump, the system is electronic and uses electric motors. There is no belt to wear and no pump to lose fluid out of (ever hear a car squeal when it goes around a corner? that's the belt or pump going bad) No cost there.

And before anyone says anything, check with a knowledgable electrician on how long an electric motor will last considering it has essentially one moving part. Compare that to the wear and tear of an internal combustion engine or standard mechanical pump.

- There is no accelerator cable or cable linkage, once again, it is electronic. So there is no loss of acceleration over time from cable stretch and wear like on a standard vehicle. No cost there.

- The brake pads should never need to be replaced, they are hardly used due to the regenerative braking system. Look up pictures on the net of Prius with no appreciable wear on the brake pads. One great example is an owner who thought to take pictures of his Prius' brake pads at 8,000 miles and then again at 105,000 miles. The pads were measured with calipers and there was no appreciable wear after 97,000 miles. No cost there.

- You never touch the nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery or the hybrid system, it is self regulating. No cost there.

- The gas engine is not tuned up for 100,000 miles. At even 15,000 miles per year, that's about seven years. And then...

- four spark plugs run $12.00 each, four is $48.00 (the wires aren't replaced and there are no distributors because each cylinder has a direct injection module and they are not replaced)

- coolant is $15.50 a gallon and you need two gallons, or $31.00 (if you live in an extremely hot or cold climate, you might need to change the coolant 2X in 100,000 miles so figure $62.00 there)

- air filters are $18.00 for the engine and $25.00 for the cabin and are replaced every 15,000 miles. So over 100,000 miles, we'll go high and say 7 sets of air filters at $301.00.

- inspect the wiring, change the oil (might as well, since you're there) lube, inspect and flush the brake lines, flush the coolant if necessary. It runs about $225.00, which includes parts.

- the sealed, continuously variable transmission fluid is not changed until 90,000 miles, about $140.00

- The OEM (Original Equipment from the Manufacturer) Goodyear Integrity's are about $113.00 each, installed. The originals are low-rolling resistance, specialty tires, just like a truck or sports car. They will last about 35,000 or so. Three sets of OEM tires- over 105,000 miles- will run $339.00 installed.

- Oil and filter changes every 3000 miles and tire rotations every 6000 miles, just like any other vehicle. Oil changes are about $26.00 and tire rotations are about $18.00, or about $884.00 for oil changes and $306.00 for rotations over 100,000 miles

So, over 100,000 miles, for regular service, a Prius should run about $2231.00, rounded to $2300.00, or about .023 cents per mile.

All of my service and parts amounts come from a local Toyota dealership, and do not figure in any kind of promotions, coupons, or discounts. I called on 6/12/07.

We'll go high and say gas in a Prius will run about $6,000 over 100,000 miles, or about .06 cents per mile (100,000 miles / 50 mpg (I get 51.7 mpg currently as an average, city and highway, auto temp w/air and stereo on) = 2000 gallons of gas X $3.00 a gallon = $6,000).

So a Prius will run about $8000, or .08 cents per mile, to operate over 100,000 miles.

I used 100,000 miles because it is a easy, round number, and most people don't keep their vehicles more than 6 or 7 years. The Prius will last much, much longer than 100,000, and it will perform better at that amount than most vehicles on the road with 100,000 or 150,000 miles.

Any vehicle you are considering should be put to this kind of scrutiny. A vehicle is a major investment and it will cost you money to run properly. Please print this info out and use it to compare any vehicles by calling your local dealership and asking the parts and service departments what is involved in maintenance over 100,000 miles.

As far as the energy and materials for the NiMH batteries go:

Our federal government has tested NiMH batteries from the Prius and discovered they still maintain 90% of their capacity after 100,000 miles. They do not lose 10% capacity/storage/efficiency per year, as others have stated. Look up the testing at the DOE website.

Toyota has never had a customer pay to replace a nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery in any of their hybrids ever. That is for Prius, Camry Hybrids or Highlander Hybrids. The Prius have been in the US since 2000, eight years, and in Japan for the last ten years.

There have been NiMH batteries replaced because of accidents or owner damage or neglect (wiring in a big stereo, for example), but no one has ever had to pay otherwise.

BTW, the price for a new NiMH battery for either generation of the Prius is $2985.13, not the $5-10,000.00 that people like to throw around the internet. Call your local Toyota dealer and ask for the parts department.

And the current record is over 360,000 miles on a Prius using the original NiMH battery and hybrid system. Many Prius are used as taxis and also by the State of New York and Colorado as state municipal vehicles racking up 100,000-200,000 miles without issue on a regular basis. Those are not typos, anything else you may have seen is an urban myth.

Speaking for Toyota, there is an 800 number on each nickel metal hydride battery (the one that provides the energy to move the Prius, Camry, or Highlander Hybrids) and that number allows a person to turn in that battery for a $200.00 bounty.

The entire battery, just like almost every bit of those vehicles, is completely recyclable.

The alkaline batteries that people use and throw out are a different type of battery than what is in vehicles like the Prius. The Hybrid Synergy Drive unit that Toyota developed is designed to keep the NiMH battery in a mid-peak charge range, trying not to top-charge it or, of course, completely discharge it.

That enables a NiMH to last fairly indefinitely. Obviously, there will be some breakdown eventually, but one of the great things about the Prius system, for example, is the NiMH battery is composed of 36 individual cells. If one cell goes bad, it can be replaced and the remainder stay. That is what's happened when Toyota has torture tested the Prius in Alaska and Death Valley.

Working with Toyota, I know about their commitments to recycling and the environment (Toyota's web site lists environmental reports dating back many years).

As far as the supposed "environmental impact" of the nickel metal hydride batteries in the Prius, Camry Hybrid and Highlander Hybrid...

The plant in Sudbury where Toyota buys approximately 1.5% of the plant's annual nickel output can be seen using this Google maps address:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&la...

Sudbury, Ontario is called the mining capital of the world for good reason.

The Sudbury plant has been in continuous operation since the rock was blasted to make way for the Canadian Pacific Railway in 1883.

That means that nickel has been mined there for the last 124 years. The Prius has been on the road since 1998. What about all the environmental damage done for the 116 years before the Prius ever came along?

There used to be a great deal of pollution at the Sudbury plant, just like there was at a lot of factory facilities. However, new pollution controls are in place and Sudbury residents themselves will talk about how things are improving dramatically in the area around the plant. Young trees are growing there, even now.

Another thing noted about the area around the plant is the Apollo astronauts trained there. It has been said that the area around the plant was as lifeless a wasteland as the moon. Actually, the astronauts trained there because the rock formations were similar to those on the moon. This area of Ontario was hit by a meteorite which created a basin and caused much of the look of the area. The moonscape feeling is also from the slag heaps from smelter output. Anyone who has ever seen any factory facility knows there is always a large amount of material left over from the original raw materials, be that a nickel plant, a steel smelter, or a dog food producer.

Also the environmental damage is not all due to the nickel plant - there is other industry, and a lot of the trees disappeared due to extensive logging.

Here's a breakdown:

The Sudbury nickel plant produces around 60,000 tons of nickel per year. If Toyota buys 1000 tons/year, that's around 6% of the total output.

I personally present Prius NiMH batteries to local safety responders and fire department personnel. The entire pack weighs 117.47 pounds, which is the components as well as the actual nickel itself. The nickel weighs about 50 pounds. So that's 50lb per Prius, with 2000 pounds per ton, that's 40 Prius per ton of nickel.

Considering the plant puts out 120,000,000 pounds of nickel each year, each Prius uses about 0.000024 of the annual production of the Sudbury plant.

And that's about it. No surprises and the maintenance is pretty simple. Please let me know if my math is off anywhere, and I'll be glad to make corrections.