Next week's HOF Veterans Committee Managers & Umpires ballot -- comments?

Question

Next Monday, 03-Dec, the Hall Of Fame will announce the results of the upcoming Veterans Committee Managers & Umpires ballot. This is one of the first two ballots under the newly revised VC, which the Hall announced in July following the third straight shutout by the old VC in February. This ballot is limited to ten candidates, as follows:

Managers
Whitey Herzog
Davey Johnson
Billy Martin
Gene Mauch
Danny Murtaugh
Billy Southworth
Dick Williams

Umpires
Doug Harvey
Hank O'Day
Cy Rigler

Like the real voters, limit yourself to no more than four Yes votes. So, who here in your opinion merits election to the Hall?

Special caveat: anyone voicing support of Billy Martin MUST explain their reasoning. A simple "he managed the Yankees to a championship" isn't nearly good enough. (I'd prefer explanations for any candidate, but for Martin I must insist on some real evaluative thinking.)

Answer 1

Can't speak as to the umps. Don't know how I would judge them.

Whitey is the only one I'd give a yes to. As a manager, it isn't enough to be successful unless you are EXTREMELY successful (Joe Torre) or very successful with several different clubs (LaRussa). Therefore, you have to have done something special for the game outside of wins for this group.

Whitey has the good success with KC and STL. More importantly, he revolutionized the game. "Whitey ball" single handedly defined baseball in the 1980s in the NL. Slap hitters, gap hitters, speed, defense, steals, no power. Never before had a team used astroturf so well to its advantage. His ability to get to 3 WS and win won with the utter lack of power in the lineup is amazing, and he became a model for the rest of the NL during the decade.


What he did with the Cards changed the paradigm, at least until steroids wiped out the stolen base in the mid 1990s.

Billy Martin would be next, but he doesn't have enough. His success in NY and Oakland is noteworthy, but not remarkable. His hire/fire saga with NY adds color to the game, but not enough to get into the hall. I don't think he changed the game or won quite enough.

Answer 2

You prejudice your own question by requiring additional support for Billy Martin and not for the others on the list. As I review each candidate, much is similar. They all have won and all have lost.

I for one would not have voted for Martin because in my subjective opinion I believe Murtaugh, Southworth and Williams had better careers. The rest of the list is not remarkable.

I would pick Doug Harvey as the only umpire to make the hall. He was clearly one of the best of all time. Again, subjective opinion.

I will say this about Martin, his managerial record statistically, is better than the balance of the managers list. What people might have thought of him as an individual and the on going soap opera with Reggie Jackson and George Steinbrenner not withstanding, he was an extremely effective manager.

Answer 3

I have always respected Danny Murtaugh as a manager. I believe his .540 winning percentage in his 15 year career, 5 post season appearances, and 2 world championships is a good enough accomplishment to get him in. I know Billy Southworth was considered to be a great manager with a career .597 winning percentage but was not well liked by the players and had a huge drinking problem. I could go either way with him but I would lean toward "no". Loved Whitey as a player but not as a manager. The one absolute "yes" for me would be Doug Harvey who I would put in the top ten all-time best umpires. He was 30 years as an umpire, crew chief for many of those years, 5 world series, and 6 all-star games and he never went to umpiring school. From everything I have read about him the players gave him the highest of marks calling balls and strikes.

Answer 4

Three with no explanation, Herzog, Murtaugh and Harvey.

My explanation for Martin, he turned franchises around, he took bad teams in Oakland and Minnesota and made them winners, he made Texas respectable and the TIMES with the Yankees were highly successful. His downside is the fact that he could not stay long enough anywhere due to being a hot head. I think the turnarounds mean more than the firings. He was successful everywhere.

Answer 5

I won't comment on the umpires, because I really don't know anything about them.

On the managers, I'd pick:

- Danny Murtaugh - led the Pirates to 2 World Series and 4 division titles. Often credited with introducing the modern idea of relief pitchers to baseball strategy.
- BIlly Southworth: 1044 wins and a .597 winning percentage are hard to argue with.

Answer 6

Dick Williams--took 3 different teams to the WS ( '67Red Sox, '72 & '73 A's--winners and '84 Padres)
Whitey Herzog--his record speaks for itself
Doug Harvey-- 30 yrs of top notch umping
Billy Martin-- besides his success and escapades w/ Yankees, he won the AL West with Minn. in '69, AL East in '72 with Detroit, and AL West in '81 with Oakland, and took the last place Rangers to 2nd in '74. He was a winner everywhere he went but unfortunately his "personality" always got him fired

Answer 7

Southworth first NL team to win 100 games 3 straight years... he was diffrent from most managers using diffrent tactics, "Be patient, platoon players and bunt all the time".

Answer 8

Gene Mauch and Whitey