Why can't Christians as a group be as moral as atheists?

Question

"Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%). "

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

(Note: Someone asked why more atheists than Christiams end up in jail, but when I provided this information, he deleted the question.)

Also:

http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm

Prison is an excellent gage of wrongdoers. AS A GROUP Christians are far less moral than atheists. Race is not a personal belief system, BTW, and should not be compared to one. To rationalize the tiny number of innocent people in jail as an argument is dishonest. Sorry. And could apply to the atheists, too.

Please don't rationalize.

"Sure more Christians are in jail but more christians are on the planet. "

This has been accounted for. Please read before you respond.

"They still live by pretty moral standards, they just don't have a God to answer too."

Looks like they are far more moral than those that have a god they amswer to. I think there's a reason.

"Many become Christian while in prison."

Got any data on that? Because this data seems to indicate that this isn't a factor:

"In "The New Criminology", Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without
religious training is about 1/10 of 1%. W. T. Root, professor of
psychology at the Univ. of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said
"Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding
that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers are absent from
penitentiariers or nearly so."

http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm

And, there would have to be massive (and I mean MASSIVE) conversions to Christianity in prison to make a difference in the numbers. So you need to provide data to support your assertion.

"However, person A has a disregard for 50% of the laws. Person B only has disregard for the one law that s/he broke that landed him/her in jail."

Both people acted immorally. Morality is not based on percentage of immorality.

"If I, in a fit of rage, killed a person who murdered one of my children who was found “not guilty” in a court of law, "

Please don't come up with wild situations as an argument. It's intellectually dishonest.

"The only thing that you can ascertain from the research data you have cited is that more people in prison are Christian rather than Atheist."

I think I can ascertain more than that. Since 'jail' has a meaning (place to put people that have committed crimes against others, and 'crimes' equates to immorality in the vast majority of cases) and the numbers show that a MUCH LARGER percent (considering the entire US population of atheists and Christians) of Christians acting immorally.

"I think the word moral has so many different meanings to it."

The vast majority of people in jail are there for theft, murder, rape, child abuse, assault and such. That seems pretty immoral to me objectively. Should we toss out all the laws because someone might not believe in them??

Had the research shown the opposite...that the jails are filled with atheists and not Christians....would you still be making these arguments?

Be honest, Christians.

"Your figures might point to the fact that a lot of people just happen to be religious (to some extent) in America."

Please read the question carefully before you reply. This was accounted for.

"So, I don't think that whether or not someone breaks the law is a true defining point to determine someone's morality."

The vast majority of people are in jail because they did something immoral. Objectively immoral. Unless you can point me to examples of many people in jail that did nothing immoral?

You need to provide evidence, like I did.

Also, your claim would also apply to atheists, assuming it were true and of significance.

"I merely responded in kind. :) "

Nope, you totally dropped context. But I thank you for an excellent example of how christians can rationalize doing wrong.

" Not once have I mentioned anything that relates to my belief system."

This: "Now before you get all up in arms and say that I am a so and so, you should know that although I do not subscribe to any religion, I am a believer." and "I studied Theology at a Catholic University."

They taught you well.

"Gotta love your thinking, Annie!"

Thanks, but it's actually the result of several studies!

" Maybe it's because they believe they can ask god to forgive their sins, while we atheists know we are responsible to no god, and to no man but our own self."

I think that's part of it and I think atheists understand WHY they hold the moral values they do. Ask someone religious why stealing is bad and they answer: "Because god said so". No solid understanding of the principle.

"They are a extremely small minority,"

sigh. Again, this was factored into the numbers.

Answer 1

Gotta love your thinking, Annie! Maybe it's because they believe they can ask god to forgive their sins, while we atheists know we are responsible to no god, and to no man but our own self.

Answer 2

Atheist do not end up in jail as much because of
1) Atheist tend to be in the higher middle class to the rich, meaning that they have a higher degree of education,
which means more employment oppertunity,
2) They are a extremely small minority, and to get such a small minority, there is a less of a chance that they will go to jail, taking into consideration that they are more educated and more wealthy.
Going to prison is not 'un-moral' because some may have broke the law for a greater good, like a man stealing to support his family or someone he loves in ways he cannot do otherwise, and we, hopefully, could all consider moral. And this goes back to education, which religion play no factor, unless some came up with a religion called 'anti-learning-ism',

Answer 3

I think that your question (contention) does not really go hand in hand with your research findings. It is a false conclusion to the data you have provided.

"Why can't Christians as a group be as moral as atheists?"

Seriously, now...

You are obviously a very bright individual with an analytical mind. But, when you take a leap like this, it makes me wonder if you are really thinking.

The only things you can truly surmise as a result of that research data "'Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%),'" is that there are more Christians than Atheists in prison.

Morality is more involved than that. Let us play a game...

Let us pretend for a moment that laws are morals.

You have two people in jail for committing the same crime. However, person A has a disregard for 50% of the laws. Person B only has disregard for the one law that s/he broke that landed him/her in jail. To really determine someone’s morality or lack thereof, you certainly would need more information than the fact that the person was in jail.

If I, in a fit of rage, killed a person who murdered one of my children who was found “not guilty” in a court of law, went to prison (and this were the only crime I had ever committed) with people who routinely committed crimes (without being caught), I wouldn't consider myself to be equally as immoral as those people.

You can’t determine the degree of someone’s morality in this way anymore than you can comparatively determine who is more or less moral – the person who has gone to jail or the person who has not.

The only thing that you can ascertain from the research data you have cited is that more people in prison are Christian rather than Atheist.

Edit:
"Both people acted immorally. Morality is not based on percentage of immorality."

You are the one who put morality on a sliding scale when you phrased your question:

"Why can't Christians as a group be as moral as atheists?"

I merely responded in kind. :)

Edit:
Not all things that are considered immoral are against the law. So, I don't think that whether or not someone breaks the law is a true defining point to determine someone's morality. That is, as you say, "intellectually dishonest."

Edit:
"But I thank you for an excellent example of how christians can rationalize doing wrong."

You are making an assumption. Not once have I mentioned anything that relates to my belief system. But, just as you drew an erroneous conclusion from the data you cited, you are drawing an erroneous conclusion from the things I've said.

It is better, when debating an idea, to stick to fact. At the very least it adds validity to your conclusions.

Because this has now disintegrated into a debate between you and me that has nothing to do with the original topic, I will excuse myself from the conversation.

Very interesting and fun, though. Thanks, :)

Answer 4

that argument, that Christians are not as moral as atheists, cant be proven by prison stats
certain racial groups also have a higher percentage in prison then fits with their percentage of the population, are they less moral? or do you consider other factors,
first, percentage of population, is everyone being counted?
second, income status, does everyone have the same access to legal defense?
third, racial profiling (that is considered a part of the reason that certain groups get arrested more and harsher sentences and others do not, what percentage of known atheist are also minorities)
finally, is prison a good judge of morals? yes some are there due to immoral acts, others for acts that might be moral, and innocent people are there also
so i think you need to find another basis for this topic, other then jail or prison
ps: no, i wasnt saying race was a belief, i was saying that race often accounts for more prison sentences, so you would need to know the percentage of atheists who are a minority, what the average income level is , and the percentage of them who make it publicly know that they are atheist, in order to fully look at any stats you are viewing, along with arrest and conviction totals,
add to this that there are many , in my opinion, immoral things that are not considered illegal, and some illegal things that are perhaps moral, it would be difficult to form an informed opinion just based on prison stats,
and BTW, Unitarians are not indifferent to religion, so see, i have a very strong religion, i am Unitarian, i dont follow the major Christian religions, but i believe in Jesus, how would you place me in these stats of yours, whether i was in prison or not? once you start speaking of people as a "group" when there are really no known characteristics common to all in that group, you lose touch with the real facts

annie, the very first thing taught in statistics class its that they can be manipulated to draw any conclusion you want, and the only stats that have any merit are those that take all conceivable factors into account

Answer 5

I think the word moral has so many different meanings to it. Religion dictates what is moral and what it not, for that particular religion. So to say Christians aren't as moral as atheists, would not be right. So many things that atheists do would be seen as immoral to Christians and vice versa.
In that sense, i think to use statistics related to the religious background of prison inmates would not be right. Imagine if a Muslim was to take control of your country and made new laws, such as, it is illegal to eat Pork, the prison population would rise immediately, but would a Christian think what they are doing is immoral? Would an atheist eating pork, think he is doing something immoral? The answer is No. Morality in had always been dictated by who is in charge and what they think is immoral and not.

Answer 6

Sure more Christians are in jail but more christians are on the planet. Christianity is the largest religion in the world. Atheism isn't so popular. So let's say for example 50% of the world is Christian and only 3% is Atheist. What percentage of Atheists would end up in prison? Not a lot. Even if they all went to jail it still wouldn't match the Christians locked away. And remember... they're Atheists... not Anarchists or Satanists. They still live by pretty moral standards, they just don't have a God to answer too. Just because you don't believe in God doesn't make it right to kill and steal. It's just basic ethics. I'm a Christian by the way so don't think I'm sticking up for any one group here. I'm just using simple logic.

Answer 7

As an atheist I don't feel part of a group with other atheists. I'm not sure there's actually an atheist morality either. Your figures might point to the fact that a lot of people just happen to be religious (to some extent) in America. That doesn't mean that atheists are not in jail because they disbelieve.

Answer 8

I have known many atheists, although I am not one. As a rule, I'd say the majority of atheists are very moral and ethical. I don't think many so-called Christians today, especially the re-born agains (what happened the first go round?) come close.

Answer 9

I would think that true Christians and true Atheisists are equally moral. The problem arises from professing Christians--it's just one more lie they are telling. Just because someone says they are a Christian, doesn't mean that they are one. Being a Christian is living the life. It's a lot like being pretty--all in the eye of the beholder. In the case of Christians, the beholder is Christ and Christ alone.

Answer 10

Many become Christian while in prison. Seems they finally found out that they can not make it alone. If you were ever convicted of a crime and your entire future would consist of a tiny cell and the same routine for the rest of your life... you might also want to believe that there is more after death, what else would you have to look forward to? An ending of existence after a horrible existence on earth. That sounds pretty bleak for a prisoner.

Answer 11

Well as an atheist id love to blow our own trumpets, but i think prison populations are more likely to "turn to god" accounting for the higher levels of christians...

BUT at least I provide all the facts, as an atheist. Christians are not often doing that.