Can anyone answer these three objections to the dogma of homosexual predestination?

Question

1. If homosexuality were predestined, 100% of the identical twins of homosexuals would be homosexual. In fact, only 38% of the identical twins of homosexual are homosexual, and 62% are heterosexual.
http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead2.html

2. If homosexuality were predestined, homosexuals would be incapable of establishing normal sexual relations. However, 90% of homosexual men have dated women and two-thirds have had sexual intercourse with women.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/PragerHomosexuality.shtml

3. Many people change their sexual orientations. Some heterosexual men choose to become homosexuals, and some homosexual men eventually marry and lose any interest in performing sex on other men.
http://www.cwfa.org/articles/4325/CFI/cfreport/index.htm
http://www.narth.com/docs/evidencefound.html

Interesting how many true believers in sexual predestination reflexively attack the questioner rather than answer the question.

Snout and Icarus, it sounds like you are arguing that homosexuality simply has some genetic component rather than predetermination. Is homosexuality also subject to environmental influences and learning?

By "normal" sexual relations, I mean using the sexual reproductive system according to its biological design, i.e., in ways that allow for sexual reproduction.

Answer 1

No. These objections can't be answered. The evidence you cite indicates that homosexuality is learned.

1. While the co-incidence of homosexuality in identical twins is striking, the environment of identical twins is usually the same and they share a physical resemblance. Note, too, that half of all FRATERNAL twins are boy-girl pairs, and thus they do not constitute an appropriate comparison group. We would need a comparison of same-sex identical and fraternal twins raised in adoptive homes to provide any evidence of a genetic component, which still falls far short of determinism.

2. That homosexuals typically demonstrate heterosexual attraction shows that sexual attraction is polymorphous. An exclusive heterosexual or homosexual orientation requires learning. Note, too, that men have been sexually attracted to little girls and young boys; to a single partner and to large groups; to total strangers and immediate family members; and to a variety of domesticated animals.

3. Again, well documented changes in sexual orientation falsify the determinist hypothesis. Relevant here is the high incidence of conversion to homosexuality in prison populations--everyday proof that sexual orientations change.

CDF

Answer 2

"1. If homosexuality were predestined, 100% of the identical twins of homosexuals would be homosexual. In fact, only 38% of the identical twins of homosexual are homosexual, and 62% are heterosexual."

This is illogical. 97% of homosexuals have heterosexual parents. Thus it is much more likely that the identical twins of homosexuals will be heterosexual since heterosexuality is the dominate sexual orientation. To say that 100% of identical twins of homosexuals would be homosexual would be to say that 100% of identical twins of heterosexuals would be heterosexual. Since reality clearly shows that this not the case, then to presuppose that 100% of identical twins of homosexuals would be homosexual is not logical, and not grounded in reality.

"2. If homosexuality were predestined, homosexuals would be incapable of establishing normal sexual relations. However, 90% of homosexual men have dated women and two-thirds have had sexual intercourse with women."
Yes I know heterosexual men who have had sexual relations with men. I don't remember the percentage number, but it was in the 30-40% range....much higher than even I, a homosexual man, expected. I know that most homosexual men attempt to date women believing that that is what is expected of them by society...depending on where they live, their family, religion, etc. The 90% of homosexual men who have dated women do so in their younger years while their still trying to understand who they are and how they fit into society. They do so under peer pressure or as a way to deflect taunting and teasing by their peers and thus use dating women to hide their true identity. My understanding of those homosexual men who had sexual intercourse with women is that either A) they ended up not being to completely perform or B) they were fantasizing about men during the entire process. The point is that whether a homosexual man has dated a womam or had sex with a woman is irrelevant. The complete defination of homosexual is "a person who is romantically and sexually attracted to the same gender". There are two core components....it's just about sex, it is also about romantic love. There are homosexuals who are in romantic loving relationship but never engage in sexual relations. They still identify as homosexual just as heterosexuals in a romantic loving relationship but also do not engage in sexual relations still identify as heterosexual.

"3. Many people change their sexual orientations. Some heterosexual men choose to become homosexuals, and some homosexual men eventually marry and lose any interest in performing sex on other men."
Yes many people do, although this presupposes that the person was truly heterosexual to begin with and the homosexual men who marry often do so in an arrangement called "marriage of convenience" that is to say they marry to fulfill what they perceive to be their "duty" and thus do it under pressures by the family. Also, the % of this happening is low, under 20% amongst men. It is actually a bit higher % amongst women...between 20-30%.


Humanity is incredibly diverse. Just as we each do not experience and understand God the same, so too do we each not experience and understand life the same. Whether it is a matter of what sexual orientation you experience life from or what religion or what gender, etc, the fact is that each of us experience life differently because of these differences. It is better to simply embrace the complex and diverse natures of humanity rather than to try to force them into neatly defined black and white boxes.....just as we should not try to force God into a neatly definated black and white box.

In peace.

Answer 3

Most studies show that in about 50% of identical twins, if one sibling is homosexual then the other is too. That figure is about 20% for non-identical twins and 10% for non twins and non genetically related brothers. This is pretty conclusive proof of a strong genetic component to sexual orientation.

Answer 4

1. Identical twins doesn't mean that everything within their genetic makeup is identical. Some have a mole where the other doesn't, So why would it be so hard to think that maybe what they find attractive in a mate could be different - including their gender?

2.What do you consider "normal" sexual relations? I consider normal to be a monogamous, loving relationship. This being said there are quite a few homosexuals who are in the same boat as everyone else. Just because gay people aren't like you doesn't mean that they are incapable of loving just the same.

3. Maybe people aren't changing their sexual orientation, maybe they are just curious and want to try something new. This would explain the straight, to gay, to straight for the rest of their life person. As for the straight man who "chooses" to become gay,...did it ever occur to you that some homosexuals are very aware of the discrimination that will be thrown at them and try to lie to themselves about what they find sexually exciting? Many gay people try to live the straight life at first just because it is "easier" for others to accept it.

Answer 5

You are confusing "predestined" with "innate".

1. "Genetic" and "biologically determined" are not the same thing. There are many biological factors (for example birth order) which are not genetic. Most temperamental traits in humans and other animals result from a variety of factors including genetics, other biological factors and social factors. Twin studies demonstrate that genetics plays some part in sexual orientation, but it is not the whole picture. It rarely is.

2. Most homosexuals ARE capable of establishing "normal" sexual relations with members of the same sex. But if your definition of a "normal" relationship is completing heterosexual coitus, then it's a rather narrow one.

3. Sexual orientation is sometimes fluid for some people in the bisexual part of the spectrum, but is largely fixed for most people at the hetero or homo ends. You are talking about sexual behaviour, not orientation.

Spitzer's "study" is in fact is no more than a collection of questionable and unverfied testimonial claims from a few evangelical Christians. Spitzer himself remarked how difficult it was to find people prepared to make such claims. It is no more scientifically credible than a collection of claims by members of a pyramid selling herbal weight loss racket.

Here is a very generous critique of his "study" http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_spit.htm

[Edit] "Predestination" is a religious concept, not a concept in psychology or genetics. Genes are recipes, not blueprints. But yes, to answer your question, genes are only one component in the development of sexual orientation. Birth order is another factor known to influence sexual orientation (a male's chances of being gay increase by 30 per cent with each biological older brother he has, irrespective of his age order in the social family in which he was raised).

It is possible that non biological environmental and learned factors may influence the development of heterosexual vs homosexual orientation, but there is no good science supporting such a hypothesis, unlike with genetics and birth order.

Leaving aside the question of teleology, your definition of "normal sexual relations" is still unsatisfactory. It excludes about 99 per cent of loving human sexual acts, while including such monstrosities as rape in war. The assumption that sexuality is not "normal" unless it "allows for reproduction", while central to official Catholic teaching on sexuality, is unsupportable on any grounds except the stubbornly dogmatic. It utterly fails any reasonable moral test, and is inconsistent with maintaining a habitable planet long term.

Answer 6

I think homosexuals were born that way...we're all born into sinful flesh just trying every day to put off the former self and put on the new. read Colossians and Ephesians. Doesn't, however, mean one should embrace the tendency of homosexuality just because they feel driven to.

Answer 7

perhaps you should look for some more reliable references. do you really think orthodoxytoday.com has reliable information about the dating habits of gay men?

1. i didn't notice where you cited your credentials in human genetics. even a clone won't develop exactly the same way as its original organism.

2. in the cultural climate created by hateful christians, homosexuality is extremely stigmatized. gays often try hetero relationships in an effort to fit in and avoid ostracization.

3. people come to terms with the sexual orientations, they don't change them. some people are bisexual and can appear to change, but they don't.

none of your points are supportable with real facts, except for the implied point that you are a bigot.

Answer 8

That's a lie from the pit of hell no one born gay that is a choice and God made man for a woman and a man for a woman to mate gay is a choice it just somrthing they want to do.

Answer 9

This is, without a doubt, some of the most moronic tripe I've ever wasted a minute of my life reading. How do you manage to breathe on your own?

Answer 10

Those are the 3 biggest nonsensical lies I've heard all day...

Way to make things up without consulting people who might know...