1919 Black Sox, What Happened?!?

Question

Is it true that the 1919 Black Sox really "threw" the World Series?? If so, why the heck did they do such a thing?!?! If you have any info on this can you please explain this to me! I just heard about it a couple of days ago and I am curious, Thanks!! best answer gets 11 points!!

WHAT?!?! That didnt answer my question what-so-ever.

Answer 1

Charles Comisky was the owner back then. He was infamous for not paying his men what they deserved. He once gave them flat champange to celebrate the pennant with. 8 players of the team including Shoeless Joe Jackson (allegedly) were approached by gamblers who instructed them to throw the series.

They were heavily favored vs the Cinncinati Reds, but dropped the first 2 games to them. They would win the 3rd and lose the next 2. They played a best of 9 back then so the Black Sox came back to win 1 more, but lost in the 8th game of the series. Almost immediately the public assumed they had thrown it since the Sox were so heavily favored. There was a trial and they 8 men were found not guilty but it didn't matter. None of them made that much money off the whole deal as the man who was paying them actually lost all of his money midway thru the series, but later got most of it back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919_World_Series
http://www.chicagohs.org/history/blacksox.html
http://www.1919blacksox.com/

Edit: There I fixed it :)

Answer 2

1919 Black Sox Roster

Answer 3

8 members of the 1919 Chicago White Sox fixed the world series along witht the help of gamblers. Each was suppose to be paid a $ amount to throw games in the series. Watch the move Eight men out. Really amazing how cheap oweners were back then.

Answer 4

the White Sox threw the series. They were a powerhouse and it was the beginning of the roaring 20s and bootlegging and mob stuff was huge and Chicago ... mob... follow? .... ok so they fixed the series. The press then Baseball found out and had to do something about it... it would have been a PR disaster... and the Yankees got one of the only 2 big competition outta their way and they bought 8 players from the other competition the Red Sox and they won 26 WS... ok with me so far? They did it cause they got paid to. They were massive favorites and the books made soooooo much money on that WS. Kinda like the 2004 ALCS... books banked on that one... the underdog won every game...

Answer 5

First of all, if you haven't seen it, watch the movie "Eight Men Out", quite possible the best movie on the subject. There were 8 Chi. White Sox players accused and then acquitted of "conspiracy to commit a confidence game", or basically taking bribes to throw the 1919 series against Cincy.

Charles Comiskey was a ruthless underpaying owner and the "fix" supposedly happened because he was very cheap with salaries.

Despite the acquittal of the 8 players, Judge Kennesaw Mountain Landis, then commissioner of the MLB, banned them from baseball for life.

The 8 were:
Eddie Cicotte (P)
Claude "Lefty" Williams (P)
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson (OF)
Oscar "Hap" or "Happy" Felsch
Buck Weaver (3B)
Fred McMullin (IF)
Charles "Swede" Risberg (SS)
Chick Gandil (1B)

The sad thing about it was that they were supposed to get about $10,000 each for throwing the series. Most of them only got $10,000 one time --- Buck Weaver never took at dime, Hap Felsch received around $1,500.

"The conspiracy was the brainchild of White Sox first baseman Arnold "Chick" Gandil and Joseph "Sport" Sullivan, who was a professional gambler of Gandil's acquaintance. New York gangster Arnold Rothstein supplied the major connections needed. The money was supplied by Abe Attell, former featherweight boxing champion, who accepted the offer even though he didn't have the $80,000 that the White Sox wanted."

(Also, $C-Note$ --- it was 8 games --- Cincy won Games 1, 2, 4, 5, and 8. Still gave you thumbs up as always.)

Answer 6

Some good answers.

I'd make one comment regarding Steve M's answer, though.

"How hard was it for them to be playing with those other bunch of losers during that series?"

If Collins and Shalk knew nothing about the fix, then it probably didn't affect them any more than any other loss. Remember, Weaver was suspended for just knowing about the fix and failing to report it, so Collins and Shalk must not have known about the fix. It would probably be more appropriate to ask, "How hard was it for Weaver to be playing with those other bunch of losers?"

Steve M is correct about their reputation for honesty, so it is credible that the players arranging the fix might think it would be a bad idea to talk to those two about.

Ironically, Joe Jackson supposedly not only notified White Sox management, but asked to be benched because he didn't want to follow through on the fix. Whether that's true or not is debatable, especially since there were three triples hit to left field with Jackson the left fielder (a triple to left field tends to be kind of rare, since the throw to 3rd is shorter).

None the less, the claim that White Sox management knew of the fix ahead of time was credible enough that Weaver successfully sued for his 1921 salary. The jury in that case felt that failing to report something to management that management already knew was an invalid reason for suspending Weaver and that he was unjustly denied his means of making a living.

Another strange thing about the Black Sox trial was that Jackson's and Cicotte's confessions turned up missing for the original trial, but Jackson's confession was produced by Comiskey's lawyers when Jackson also tried to sue for his 1921 salary under the claim he had nothing to do with the fix. The confession was one of the reasons he lost his lawsuit.

Comiskey obviously didn't have a part in fixing the games, but his role in the whole mess wasn't an example of great judgement. He wasn't exactly leading the charge to expose crooked players on his team. Having his team exposed for fixing games would be a disaster for attendance, plus his roster would be decimated.

So, perhaps Collins and Shalk did know about the fix, since it's at least somewhat likely that the manager, Kid Gleason, and Comiskey knew about the fix and it seemed like just about everyone else did (in fact, Joe Gedeon of the St Louis Browns was also suspended in the Black Sox scandal and he wasn't on either World Series team - he was suspended for finding out about it and using the info to bet on the Series).

It's just hard to determine how the dividing line about 'failing to notify team officials' was drawn.

I'd also note that while Comiskey was cheap and tended to cheat his players out of bonuses by having them benched, the movie Eight Men Out does have a small inaccuracy. It's true that Cicotte was held out of some starts at the end of the season that left him stuck on 29 wins, but the fix actually occurred before he was benched. It might not be too far fetched for Cicotte to realize that Comiskey would probably do to Cicotte what he'd done to so many other players in the past, but it didn't happen quite the way the movie described it.

Steve M captured the environment baseball existed in back then very accurately, though. There was a reason professional athletes were originally excluded from the Olympics. The mix between sports and money back then always tended to be bad.

Answer 7

I will add some info...because the answers already provided, the 2 or 3 better ones anyway, give you all you need to know, and are correct, I won't rehash and piggyback on their answers...however there is more...

Yes, it is true that the Sox threw the series, only 8 guys were involved.

Why they did such a thing is for the money.

Now for this missed info and added commentary that goes to the heart of your question.

Baseball was different then. This was before Ruth brought the game to more prominence. Little bandbox fields, no stadiums then, that held only a few thousand fans. Reporters and photographers sat on the field, in foul territory. There were some fields where fans sat in the outfield and watched the game.

It was small, and not much money was in it. Many, if not most of the players were the rough and tumble type...hard drinkers, uneducated, late nighters, pick a fight with anyone....get the picture.

Now, before arbitration and free agency, players were bound to their teams for life, they either played for what their owners gave them, or they didn't play. Also at that time there was no minor league system. The minor leagues were minor in size only. They were not minor in being a subject of the big leagues, like now. They were simply independent and established leagues, who played in smaller cities, to smaller crowds, and paid less to the players. When a 'major' league team back then wanted a new player, they didn't 'call up' someone, they went and bought his contract from one of these other lesser league teams, or signed someone who wasn't playing at the time. And those guys were plentiful, and good. The difference between most typical major leagues and the better of the 'minor' leaguers was slim to none.

So, with less money in the game, 100% servitude of the players, and readily available, cheap replacement talent...most owners were beyond cheap. They paid scraps to the players, if they left, so what, they'd pay scrap to the next guy, and the players knew this. Comiskey of the Sox might have been the worst.

Prior to 1915, there were a few minor leagues, who sorta became 'major' leagues and tried to buy up the major league players from the NL and the AL...and like always happens, a bidding war started and salaries shot up, way way up. Players jumped teams and leagues all the time, it was common. There was no loyalty, at all, to the league, to the team, to the rules, or to the game itself..that is the real beginning to the 1919 Black Sox.

Players were getting rich, comparatively.

But like always happens, the bubble burst on these other leagues, and they went under. The players had no choice but to come crawling back to their teams, and the owners really put the screws to them. Salaries dropped to lower than they were before. The players knew, that of course the owners 'could' pay more (because they just had, with the bidding war), but wouldn't.

The players and the owners hated each other, and hate is not a strong enough word.

So, with getting no money, being treated as cattle, slaves if you will, being of a rough and tumble nature, and having seen, and been shown a system with no loyalty, no future, no pension.....it becomes obvious how throwing games could, and would, happen.

Now the 1919 Sox were not the only ones. Betting on games, throwing games, guys giving money to other teams players so their hits would fall in. (there were at least 2 batting championships that were won this way...guys bunting to 3rd, and the 3rd sacker not picking the ball up...). Cheating, gambling..It was everywhere, and it involved stars of the time. Cobb, Speaker, Chase..many others were involved to one degree or another. It was a dirty, dirty game. And since there was no commissioner to police the games, and the owners didn't want to kick their stars and players off teams, there was no incentive to stop this nonsense...it went on FOR YEARS.

And there were several, several times before when World Series games were thrown also. In fact, there were a few years, the series went to 9 games, best of 5. Why, because 'everyone' knew that the gamblers and players had their hooks on the games...so an unwritten wink happened...1 teams throws one game, the other team the 2nd, make a few bucks, and play the real series, best out of 7.

The Sox of 1919 were just the tip of the iceberg. They made history, and headlines, and caused a change. The USA was starting the roaring 20's..the economy suddenly was booming, attendance at games were booming....new young stars entering the game....live ball era..there was a new excitement to the game that hadn't ever been seen before...and the owners knew, if they didn't get a hand on this cheating, the game would be forever tainted as 'dirty' and eventually the league would be more like WWF, than baseball. They couldn't have that, they wanted all that new money that was around.

They hired a commissioner, he kicked these guys out, and the owners and players started getting along better..Ruth showed them all a way to a new and better world.....

So, now with a real punishment for betting (ask Pete Rose), and making reasonable enough money that the risk of making more wasn't worth the the risk of getting caught...the gambling, cheating element went away. And all that's left to most people's memory was the 1919 Sox..but they were not the only ones...

I believe, in the end there were some 40 players total, who were either outright banned for life, like the 8 Black Sox, or who were plainly told not to try to show up anymore..they were persona non grata.

One last thing, I promise...the 2 other regular players on the Sox, who were not 'part of it'...Eddie Collins (2B) and Ray Schalk (C) are Hall of Famers. They were also known wide and far as honest men, men of great character, decent, loyal men. How hard was it for them to be playing with those other bunch of losers during that series?

Anyway, I hope this helps you understand the 'why' and 'how' this happened..what led to it...

Good luck..

To Bob G...2 below me...thanks for the comment.

To clarify..I believe it is clear Collins, Schalk, Gleason, Comiskey...the umps..everybody knew about the fix. Maybe not to the extent of throwing the whole series...but certainly a game or 2. As I said, throwing games in the series had happened before...and everyone saw this 1 coming.

Also, don't believe Buck Weaver too much...I must have read a dozen different quotes over the years attributed to Collins, how Weaver would call a hit and run (players in those days usually called the plays on the field..not like our micromanaged game of today)...and then not execute. How Weaver would acknowledge a sign...and not execute..how he would play out of position, not make a throw he could have, pick up a bunt that was clearly going foul.....little things like that that would never show up in a box score.

Also, I wonder how Collins and Schalk felt about going all out, when they knew it was a waste of time...

Lastly, to the guy wondering about Speaker and Cobb...while they were to some extent involved at times in some nefarious activity...probably...it was mostly rumor...they were brought up on charges, and a hearing was done...but they just didn't have the proof...not that it would have mattered much...they had the proof on Hal Chase for years...

Answer 8

Eight players conspired, in concert with some gangster-associated gamblers, to "fix" -- not try to win -- selected games of the 1919 World Series. Two key players were starting pitchers Eddie Cicotte and Lefty Williams, who lost their starts in Games 1, 2, 4, and 5. By the time Game 5 was over, the conspirators were being stiffed on their payoffs by the gamblers, and decided to try and win after all. Williams was served a death threat if he didn't blow Game 8 (that year was best five of nine), and he conveniently flamed out in the first inning. The Sox couldn't rally far enough, and lost the Series, 5-3, to the Cincinnati Reds, which were a lesser team on paper (much this same White Sox roster had won the Series in 1917). Eventually the conspiracy leaked, local prosecutors brought the Black Sox to trial for public fraud, they were acquitted (in some classic Chicago-style courtroom jiggering), the team owners created the office of the commissioner and hired federal judge Kenesaw M. Landis to hold the chair, and he ruled all eight Sox players -- Cicotte, Williams, Jackson, Felsch, Gandil, Risberg, Weaver, and McMullin -- permanently ineligible for employment or association with organized baseball. They never played (under their real names, or in the majors) again.

The key point to take away is that NOT EVERY GAME WAS THROWN. Apologists, particularly those for Joe Jackson (as none of the other seven appear to have any supporters at all, except perhaps Weaver, who has the strongest case for not participating), always cite his total Series stats in defense of his cause. Only four of the eight games were thrown, plus Williams acting alone in Game 8. Now, four clean games and four thrown games makes for two very small samples of data, but Jackson's performance in the clean games is far superior to that in the thrown games. It doesn't prove anything, but it certainly doesn't help his cause; and so this important detail gets wallpapered. Don't fall for it. These men knew what was going on and what they were doing.

Answer 9

Looks like you already have plenty of answers. So here is a better question: Why are Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker in the Hall of Fame when they regularly bet on games?

Answer 10

in all likelihood Landis's one super success (nicely 2, cleansing up playing altogether) they did no longer merely pull 8 adult adult males out of a hat - those adult adult males have been definitely accountable which consists of jackson and are deserving. there is not any excuse. the international sequence is sacred and those adult adult males abused it What a great form of people in all likelihood are not attentive to is supposedly for the time of the 1920 universal season, all of them, which consists of jackson have been taking funds to throw universal season video games too (study the e book on Jackson). I additionally carry Selig in an identical contempt I carry for those fellows for permitting the ninety 4 WS to no longer take place.