The Armenian genocide?

Question

I am neither Turkish nor Armenian (I am Irish-American and a Marxist), but I have a recently discovered daughter born in, and living in, Istanbul; born to a Turkish woman with whom I had a romance in San Francisco 25 years ago, who returned to Turkey without telling me that she was pregnant.
Preparing to meet her next year, I have been studying Turkish history, culture, and learning the language. I believe that there really was a genocide against the Armenians, but I have also found some evidence that there were atrocities against Turkish civilians committed by Armenian insurgents provoked by the Western empires, who wanted to speed the destruction of the Ottoman empire. Can anybody supply me with IMPARTIAL, UNBIASED sources (print or online) of information on the subject of Armenian atrocities against Turkish civilians? No Wikipedia, which is mostly krap!

Answer 1

Dear Jimmy,

Please read it, and if you have any question please ask us ...
We are always Travel-> Turkiye Section ...

"Armenian Oral History" can never be taken at face value, because too many Armenians have been influenced by the "Dashnak mentality," which includes (as Rafael Ishkhanian nicely put it):

"To curse at Muslims and especially at Turks, to talk much
about the Armenian Genocide, and to remind others constantly of the brutality of the Turks are all regarded as expressions of patriotism."

Even among honorable Armenians, recalling events of long ago brings along the trauma of those early years, and the testimony becomes tainted. ("According to current empirical research... under conditions of great stress people are poorer perceivers, because stress causes a narrowing of attention." Lewy's Armenian Massacres; footnote: Eyewitness Testimony, Civil and Criminal, 1997.) The information becomes all the more unreliable when genocide advocates do the interviewing, where we can never be certain as to what extent coaching played a part. Moreover, for those who were young children at the time, one must pause at the incredible detail that has been recollected... as in the case of Leon Surmelian, whose memory while an eight-year-old defies description.

But let's take a look at a real telling, now.

Hrant Sarian, born 1901 in Adapazar, began to keep a diary in July of 1915, when he was fourteen years of age. His granddaughter translated this record until the end of 1922, when the American Red Cross gathered the Armenian orphans in Istanbul, to send them off to Corfou on board an Italian steamship.

His mother was still alive at the time, and he had been to an orphanage while his father had been living, as well. One of the things I learned, then, is that an Armenian orphan did not need to have his parents dead, in order to be qualified as an orphan.

Hrant Sarian's telling is very valuable, because his heart was in the right place. Aside from the fact that his story has credibility because it was being recorded at the time (as with Anne Frank's diary), Sarian was not filled with hatred. (The same as Anne Frank.) Indeed, only toward the end does Sarian make mention of the "Turkish yoke." (But even here he is talking about others' feelings, not directly of his own.)

But there is one critical difference between Sarian and Anne Frank. Anne Frank's family lived in fear of the Nazis (many Armenian-Nazis were stationed in the Netherlands at the time, with policing duties). The Turkish gendarmes, however, helped Sarian's family, and the accent is not on the family's mistreatment. (Only once does Sarian's uncle get beaten, after breaking the rules. This is not to say the gendarmes were angels, but it becomes quite apparent Sarian's family never feared getting seriously hurt by the gendarmes. Quite the contrary, they looked to the gendarmes for protection, and protect them the gendarmes did.)

The only massacres we hear about are Turks getting massacred by Arabs as the curtain of war was closing, and of Armenians getting slaughtered after the Turks were booted out of Aleppo. The persecutors were Arabs. (There is one more: we are also told of the many Turks massacred by Armenians. A second time, too.)

We also learn there was no "concentration camp" element. At times when the people were kept together in tents, permission would be requested to go to town to get goods. The Armenians were fairly free to come and go as they pleased, for the most part.

Sarian's family went through an incredible hardship. (They had it better off than their cousins in the east, as the Sarian family was allowed to travel by train; at times they needed to travel on foot, they didn't need to go through Kurdish villages, and banditry was kept to a minimum.) Yet we also can see the famine that had hit them affected all. Famine and disease did not discriminate. That's what we are never told, by unscrupulous genocide scholars, for whom only the Armenians deserve to be designated as victims.

The diary makes for a gripping story. One's heart really goes out to the family.

But as one who made this information available for an online encyclopedia (“Cretanforever”) intelligently warned, the diaries are "raw material,” allowing one to “draw personal conclusions from them, but it would be wrong to try to add them to the corpus of knowledge as such. They need to be academically treated, by someone of good repute, as Leyla Neyzi has done for Yasar Paker diaries.”


What follows is an UNOFFICIAL and SELECTIVE translation, with the help of Internet translators and an inadequate grasp on the French language. For the original, please tune in to http://perso.orange.fr/choisy/.

Some points calling to be highlighted will be footnoted. The years 1919-1922 have not been translated completely.


TABLE OF CONTENTS:

1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922

Followed by:

Another Armenian Anne Frank?




1915





July 11, 1915: The war interrupted our home in June 1915. The public criers circulated a proclamation in the streets, about the mobilization: "Seferbeylik! Seferbeylik!," affecting men from 18 to 50 years of age.

Every day there were departures to Contantinople, and then to the Dardanelles. Almost all of the Turkish and Armenian houses were emptied of their men. Other soldiers arrived downtown to be trained. Soon, soldiers were present in Adabazar as well, as the schools had to be requisitioned. We no longer had classes. Soon, the large houses were transformed into military hospitals. The gendarmes dislodged people with brutality.

One day, one intended to say that the Armenians of Sabandja were going to be deported towards Diachdjé. As the convoy passed by the edge of our city, we went to see them. It was very sad. The deportees had the right to a cart per family, on which they had piled up their principal possessions, and then went off on foot.

They said that they had left their house and their furniture and that the Turks were certainly going to take everything. Some had deposited all of their goods with the church.

I told myself that such a misfortune was not likely come upon us, because Adabazar was not a small village like Sabandja. There were four parishes and approximately five thousand families.

Saturday, July 11 in the evening, my father, while returning to the house, told us that a group of soldiers searched the city, took along and tortured the Armenians to see if they hid weapons. They dug up the gardens and sent men down in the wells to see whether there were grenades or rifles. We were very afraid upon learning this news. My father added that they were going to come tomorrow in our district.

Indeed, Sunday morning, they arrived. We learned that they had stopped the most known personalities of the city, richest, most influential, and had dispatched them without delay in Konya.

The following day, Monday, they started to gather people, large or small, in the Sourp-Garabed church. They took along my father and my uncle. Both returned healthy and safe in the evening, but many young people had been subjected to the (beating of feet). They were to reveal where the weapons could be found. If all the weapons were not delivered, the men would be killed and the naked women thrown in Sakarya.

Monday July 20. These serious maltreatments lasted all the week. Saturday evening, three hundred and fifty grenades and four carts of weapons had been delivered. The owners of these weapons and those who had acknowledged to have manufactured them were arrested.

Sunday evening, of the posters were displayed in all the districts of the city. I was the lira. It was written that as of this day, the Armenians of Adabazar were going to be deported to Konya, and in each street were posted the respective starting dates.

This morning, I saw many people who went to the market while crying, to try to sell their pieces of furniture. We received the visit of Djrgayan Mgrditch Effendi, who informed us that our house was requisitioned; a commander of the gendarmerie was going to settle there.

We were not to sell our pieces of furniture. He told us to gather all of our furniture into two rooms, to be locked at the time of our departure and to give the keys to the town hall. One granted a deadline of eight days to us to follow these instructions. "Nobody will touch your possessions during your absence" he added, "all will be returned to you upon your return."

My father served coffee for Djrgayan Effendi who added: "when you are in exile, write to the gendarmerie commander to provide your address, he will send to you half-deliveries every month for the rental of your house."[1]

The afternoon, I was at the market. There was [no room] to pass. Everyone tried to sell their possessions. Many Tcherkesses had come from the neighborhoods to buy furniture.

The following day, any sale was prohibited.

July 23, two gendarmes presented themselves on our premises on behalf of the Commander to keep the house. They settled there.

The number of the Armenians fell day by day. One did not see any any more in the streets and the market was empty. We gathered our most useful possessions in four trunks and dispatched them by the train at the station of Arifié.

July 25, we prepared two other trunks and a case which we wished to leave in the house of a friend of my uncle’s, but as there was no more room over there, my uncle stored them in his factory. We also had a hiding-place in the cabinets and stored many things there.

The date of our departure was fixed at Tuesday July 28. The morning, my father had rented a carriole. We locked all the doors and we left. We were eleven on the side of my father: my grandparents, my uncle, my aunt and my two cousins, my parents, my little brother Onnig and my small sister Siralouys, who was hardly four months; she had been born on April 4.

My maternal aunt and my uncle, my maternal grandfather and my grandmother had also rented two carrioles and joined us. When we passed in front of the town hall, my grandfather descended and deposited our keys. Then we got under way for Arifié.

The voyage lasted four or five hours, we arrived in the afternoon. On all sides of us were refugees under tents. Like us, we had not envisaged anything to camp sought a room to rent. We found one, but very dilapidated. Our bed linen had remained in our trunks. We lay down covered with our coats. The room was small, it was not as in our own home. There was full with chips; my grandparents left to sleep under a tree. My uncle remained with us.

The following day, we went to the station to dispatch our trunks to Eski-Shehir. We remained three days in this room with Arifié.

July 30, with all the members of our family, we could buy a train ticket. We could reserve places only in one sheep coach. [2] We left around two o’clock in the afternoon in the direction Biledjic. At daybreak, we were to Vizier Khan. I had not slept during the night.

Finally, on Saturday August 1 at seven o’clock, we arrived at Eski-Shehir. We saw that there were thousands of Armenian refugees under tents.

It was not allowed to go into the downtown of the city. Only the bakers had the right to go. My maternal uncle Assadour, who was a baker, asked one leave-to pass and thus could take along all of his family. They remained only five or six days under the tent. They could make pass with them all the family on the side of my mother but on the side of my father, we did not have the right to leave.

The news ran that the Protestants were going to be authorized to return to their premises. Indeed, the Protestant Armenians of Adabazar were going back. Some Gregorians joined them.[3] We did not have a tent, we made like the others, we assembled from there one with an old carpet which my uncle had gotten, and of the stakes. My father had already spent much money, and all had become very expensive. But it did not worry us too much because it had been said to us that one was going to be placed in Konya, that one could remain there. My father had hundred liras in the bank but had not been able to withdraw them. He had left with 80 liras.

With each day of expulsions, the people of Adabazar decided to lubricate the leg with the persons in charge for the camp to be saved. They succeeded in collecting 350 liras and gave them to the authorities. The money was accepted, but our request was rejected. [4]

All of these days, many refugees were deported. Police officers, armed with sticks, came to demolish the tents. It was necessary to settle further [away]. The police officers precipitated on the refugees and took them along on foot.

August 18, my father and my uncle had hidden at the edge of the river. A police officer with horse caught them and my uncle was beaten. [5] My father fell sick with fever, he who never had any [ailment] in Adabazar. We remained one month in Eski-Shehir. On arrival, we had dispatched our trunks to Afyon-Kara-Hissar, and had already bought our tickets. Several times, mom, my cousin Astrig and I had succeeded in escaping the camp and going downtown near my aunt Makrouhie.

August 20, having demolished our tent, we succeeded in leaving all together downtown. We rented a hotel room, but the next morning, the gendarmes came, they reduced to us and took us back to the camp.

A few days later, mom took me along, with my little brother and my little sister, to the home of our aunt Makrouhie. It started to rain very extremely and we could not return to the camp, we lay down with the aunt. At one o’clock in the morning, my father arrived, a lantern in one hand and said: "they are releasing all from the camp, it is necessary that we also leave". He took us along to our tent, and there I saw that thousands of tents had disappeared; there remained nothing any more.

Sunday August 30, the police officers came to demolish all the tents. There did not remain about it any more only one with the camp of Eski-Shéhir.

My father led us to the station and we travelled by the train for Afyon-Kara-Hissar. We were again in livestock wagons. In ours, we were about sixty. The evening, we arrived at Issanié. The train being stopped a little longer than at the other stations, the refugees disembarked to seek water. [6] They came back in time for the departure of the train, but little after strident cries were heard, the train stopped and we learned that a woman had been mortally wounded. Her husband was in our coach and the night passed in lamentations.

Tuesday September 1, 1915. Arrival in Afyon-kara-Hissar.

We went downtown to buy covers to make tents; that cost 82 piastres. We found a woman to sew them and in thanks we gave [what to be made a tent], and ten piastres. Then my uncle went to seek a large pole and we assembled the tent. With our other poles, my uncle drew up, beside ours, a tent in which it was going to shave people.

My little sister becomes increasingly nice. She starts to recognize people and smiles much. Mom made her sew layers and langes, and clothes for herself, with a fellow-countrywoman. My uncle made himself responsible for food. We are quiet, no police officer does not come to expel us. Every morning, I sweep in front of the tent. The night, of the guards recruited among ours supervise the camp. We pay ten piastres per night and tent for this guarding.

There are here sixty-five tents of people of Adabazar. The prelate of Pandirma is there also, as well as the bishop Djampatle d' Armache. Saturdays evening, Sunday morning and often even in week, of the priests draw up a furnace bridge and say mass. An abbot reads the Bible. Ours are not private religious ceremonies.

My father had fever again for three days, as in Eski-Shéhir.

Wednesday September 23. Our friend Vagharchag, who works with the railroads came to visit us and set out again in the evening. We benefitted by him to give two letters for our remaining family in Eski-Shéhir. Me, I wrote to my aunt.

This life lasted only three weeks. Then, expulsions began again. [7] The most distant tents were dismounted first. Our turn arrived Monday September 28. At eight o’clock in the morning, a train came to seek us at the station. This time, we were piled up, because there were so many among us, along with myself, were allowed to go up on the roof of the train. Inside the cars, only the women and the children remained.

After several stops, we arrived at nine o’clock in the evening at Konya. We did not have the right to go down until daybreak. As soon as the day was dawning, my father took me along to drink a "saleb" then we went up in our coach. A little later, my father prepared with going with me to the market to buy something to eat. We went to the station of trams and we travelled by the tram because the market was far. My father had bought a large "simit" with twenty piastres which we ate in the tram. The way lasted approximately fifteen minutes.

We bought provisions until midday, then my father took me along to a grill-room owner and, after having eaten well, we were turned over to our coach; but it was empty. All the refugees had been sent to draw up their tent in the immense fields of Konya.

We went to look for ours, we ended up finding it and stayed there for the remainder of the day as well as the following day.

The third day, the gendarmes allowed us to go to the hotel. [8] It was necessary to pay three liras per day and family of the hotel manager.

This day, I started to walk all alone to the market. I met a knowledge of Adabazar; this boy said to me that he had remained in Konya because his father was a soldier there. He told me that fifteen days ago, six thousand tents were drawn up in the camp of Konya, then the order had been given to deport this whole world on foot. The police officers had demolished the tents and had forced people to leave, carrying with them only the essential things and leaving the remainder in the camp. But people had preferred to burn what they left. If we had arrived at Konya two weeks earlier, we would have undergone the same fate. When I learned all that, I was afraid that we would also be deported, but it appears that we did not have anything to fear, because the "Vali" of Konya had been transferred.[9]

Ref : http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/diary-sarian.htm

Answer 2

An excellent book on this subject is A Shameful Act by Taner Akcam. The problem the Turks have regarding this is that many of their "founding fathers" would have been part of the actions. It would be like saying that George Washington, Ben Franklin, etc had participated in mass killings. Ataturk took a very low profile on this subject (he was not involved in the killings) as he realized it would undermine his goal of a new country. Were there killings? Yes. Were there Turks who tried (including local governors, etc) who tried to stop them? Yes. Were there Armenians killing Turks (as there are today along the border), yes. Was there a great slaughter of Armenians? Yes.
My grandparents came from Poland. Were countless Poles killed by Germans and Soviets? Yes. Do I carry a burden because of it? No. Do I understand why Poland mistrusts both Germany and Russia? Yes. Does life go on? Yes. Get over it, it was nearly 100 years ago. The Turks could do it again just as the Russians could kill millions again, but the self bemoaning has to stop. Hope this helps

Answer 3

First, there was no Armenian genocide. If you want to know about that, I would like to enlighten you about those claims. Second, it is a well known truth Armenians massacred a lot of Turks, Azerbaijanis and so on. Even some Armenians confessed those.

http://www.zerbaijan.com/azeri/genocide_quotes.htm

I recommend you read the whole page below, but 8. paragraph is very informative.

http://www.usakgundem.com/uayazar.php?id=673

Answer 4

some Turkish historians:
Kemal Karpat
Şerif Mardin
Baskın Oran
Cemil Koçak
Mete Tunçay
foreign:
Eric Zürher
Margaret McMillan

I just remembered these

Answer 5

there was no armenian genocide. i stared your question so some friends can give you sources of info. but i can tell you what i witnessed when i was child. armenian terrorist organisation ASALA killed many Turkish civilians in Turkey. some of the victims were my dads friends working as an engineer in east of turkey so you dont need to go that far to see what terrorist armenians did.

Answer 6

But what are you asking? Whether the Armenians brought the genocide on themselves by striking the first blow?

Answer 7

here is site
great resource to study about Armenian Genocide

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/