Can ideas "live" without language?

Question

Can we have ideas that do not depend on language to exist?

No, no. I am asking about an IDEA. When you THINK of something.. you deal with IDEAS. Can you have THOUGHTS that are not in a form the requieres language?

I mean... when you THINK.. can you convey (to YOURSELF) those thought WITHOUT language?

Answer 1

La problemo:

A) Penso sen lingvo estas ebla;

ekzistas penso, kiun oni povas traduki en lingvon

B) Penso nur en lingvo estas ebla;

la penso jam ekestas en lingvo

Miaj pensoj pri la problemo:

Penso estas kombino de ideoj.

Ideo estas pli malpli abstrakta modelo de parto de la realo.

Se la grado de abtraktigo estas minimuma (ekzemple se la ideo egalas al bildo perceptita de la okuloj, al sono perceptita per la oreloj au odoro perceptita per la nazo), la ideo egalas al (ne konscie prilaborita) impreso.

Mi supozas, ke apliko de pens-operacioj al tiaj ideoj estas ebla.

Tian pensadon aplikas tre malgrandaj infanoj, artistoj (ekzemple komponistoj) kaj aliaj homoj en situacio de timo, kiu postulas rapidan reagon. Sed esplori tion detale (au refuti tiun hipotezon) ankorau restas tasko de la sciencistoj.

Kontraste al tio estas klara afero, ke simpla konkreta bildo ne povas reprezenti ideon de pli alta grado de abstraktigo. Al tia pli abstrakta ideo la konscio atribuas signon. Signo, kiu reprezentas ideon, estas potenciala elemento de lingvo. La konscio certe uzas ne nur unu signon, sed multajn signojn. Manipulante signojn, la konscio kreas rilatojn inter la signoj. Reto de rilatoj inter signoj estas lingvo.

Sekve mi asertas, ke penso (ekde certa grado de abstraktigo) estas ligita al lingvo. (Tio povas esti “interna lingvo” au etna lingvo lernita en la socio. Sed tio jam estas alia problemo.)

Sekve B dominas, sed ankau A ekzistas en limigita amplekso.

Mi petas vian pardonon, ke mi ne skribis en la angla lingvo. Se mi sukcesos mi aldonos tradukon. Beg your pardon. Translation "under construction".

The problem:

A)Thought without language is possible;
there is a thought, which yuo can translate into language

B)Thougt is possible only in a language;
the thougt comes into existence alraedy in a lingustic form

My thougts on this matter:

Thinking is combining ideas.

An idea is an model of a piece of the reality (abstracted to a certain extent).

If the degree of abstraction is very low, then the idea represents an impression, that has’nt been consciously processed, refined etc. (For instance an image perceived by the eyes).

I suppose that application of cognitive operations to such ideas is possible.

Such type of thinking is applied by little children, artists (for instance composers) and other human beings in situations of fear, where instant reaction is needed. But it still remains the task of the scientists to investigate this in detail (or to refute this hypothesis).

In contrast it is quite clear, that a simple concrete image can’t render an idea, charakterized by a higher degree of abstraction. Consciousness atributes some sign to such a more abstract idea. A sign which represents an idea is a potential element of language. Of course consciousness applies not only one, but several signs. Using signs consciousness creates relations between them. A network of relations between signs, that’s a language. Hence I maintain, that thinking (beginning from a certain degree of abstraction) is connected with language. (This may be an “internal language” or an language learned in society. But here we already have another problem.)

By the way. There was a question "Is there thought without language?" at Yahoo ANSWERS Uk+Ireland one year ago. The following answer is quite interesting:
"My border collie looks behind the TV when the sheep go out of sight. He hasn't yet told me why." (Felicity O.)

Answer 2

Language organizes ideas so that they can be conveyed to someone else. If the idea were only in your head and you had no language then all you would have is emotion. You would "feel" that there is something in your mind but you would not be able to sort it out so you may end up with frustration, or anger.
So unless you define base emotions as ideas, then no.

Answer 3

That is a principle in Semantics. Propositions, that is, the part of thought that contains the meaning does not belong to any language so from Logic I can say we can have ideas independently of the language in which they are uttered

Answer 4

I would say no. Even infants have ideas of what they want, expressed without words but the idea of hunger, diaper change are expressed with cries of help.

Ideas are conceptualized through language, otherwise you would not have an idea because you wouldn't know an idea.

Answer 5

Creo que el lenguaje revela tu cerebro, ojo, el lenguaje no nada más es oral, tambien lo hay corporal, por ejemplo los bbs no saben hablar pero tienen ideas a traves de sus sentidos (lenguaje corporal y sensasorial), por lo que creo que para desarrollar ideas requieres de un lenguaje.
.
En fin una idea es el resultado de la sinapsis de tus neuronas, que en cristiano es de la comunicación de tus celulas cerebraes y requieren un lenguaje para comunicarse (en este caso químico)

bye

Answer 6

Most definitely... this is what artists, musicians and many creative people do...
or..is art.. is music also considered a 'language'?

Answer 7

Are you asking if we can communicate non-verbally? Of course! There are a lot of different ways we communicate w/ out actually saying anything.

Answer 8

umm yeah cavemen and fire duhhh