Have we reached the point where we are not entitled to draw a logical inference from perceived facts?

Question

A Conservative candidate is being chastised simply for saying that he agrees with the conclusion of Enoch Powell's much mis-interpreted speech to the effect that unrestricted immigration would change the face of Britain forever. It is clear to anyone that Britain has changed and is continuing to change as it accommodates to the influx of more and more people from overseas. Why are we no longer entitled to have honest opinions and express them? Isn't a candidate who is forthright about his views preferable to one who is not prepared to voice them? http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20071104/tpl-uk-britain-immigration-conservative-ed79be6_2.html

Answer 1

We are entitled to have honest opinions and express them.

And if those views are that a man who agrees with the conclusion of Enoch Powell's famous speech, is not fit to stand as a parliamentary candidate, then presumably that is an honest opinion expressed.

I don't think he should be deselected, but the point of view that he is not fit to stand has the same right to be expressed as the point of view Hastilow expressed.

So, I think I'm saying Hastilow is entitled to express that view.

But others are equally entitled to express the view (wrongly in my opinion) that doing so makes him unfit to hold office.

Answer 2

Of course we are not entitled to do that. Having said that, however it is not so much what you say but in which context. Enoch Powell had his good points, but certain of his statements were calculated to agitate rather than clarify a situation. Yes Bitain is changing and for many it was change for the better, until the latest outbreak of terrorism and retaliatory measures, since when it has indeed changed in a negative manner, leading to an almost police state situation. It has always been easy to put all our problems such as employment and housing down to the immigrant rather than to address the truth, the manipulations of various governments and the fact that a very large number of people are living off the backs of the poor and lower paid. Crime rates and housing crisis and the plight of nhs etc in this country is down to the greed of those at the top. Lets face it if you went into it it goes like this - it is the immigrants, it is the elderly, the one parent family, the young people, the latest is the 'it is because you are fat' excuse for poor medical practices, it is the parents fault if a child stays off school, not anything to do with the school or a particular teacher. My son is a teacher btw so I am kept well informed on that score. One day people will cotton on to the manipulations of those at the top being fed to them by the media. Then the folk who are really to blame may well become answerable for it, until then lets see child poverty eh? How the heck can you combat the cost of child poverty to the taxpayer, when it is lack of money causing child poverty well perhaps the expense of the new department (expense of?) will give us some experts view on it eh? I wish I wish oh how I wish we could be tolerant and sensible and work at problems for the better. The thing is this country has changed it is just so b...y sad and uncaring I sometimes think I will wake up soon, Oh wait though can't do that until I have a moan about my health, I wonder what immigrant did that, oh no of course not it was the nhs over 30 years ago that began it's declline, and we did'nt have many then did we? Shame that have to find another scapegoat then! Do you get me pet? it is a whole righmarole and it goes round in circles and people all follow the lead sheep (that is what Grand dad used to say when I was young, 'Country of b...y sheep this is, my lass, don't you ever forget it, the lead sheep says bah and all the others follow blindly'. I think sometimes he was so right!)
love as ever from Dot.x.

PS sorry this is more of an essay than a reply but such a good question deserved a good deal of attention.

Answer 3

I agree totally, for Enoch Powell was right! and it should not be taken in a racial context. Isn't it true that Immigration has become the rod of the British economy that is breaking the backbone of Britain? it is nothing to do with race or religion and has all to do with the fact that we are but a small Island in the Atlantic that is suffocating under the influx of foreign nationals and their needs for housing, money and Jobs. It has come to a point where British people can not get Houses because they are filled with immigrants. This has then caused the PM to decree that he will build more houses to fill the need, but this was decided without taking into account the amount of Green belt land that would have to be destroyed to make way for these houses. Why should we as Nation be dictated too by Europe? notice that the EU members of Poland are not flocking to the Catholic shores of Spain or France, no they are coming here instead, why? because 1) the pound is strong and 2) the benefits of our NHS and benefit system are too good to pass up. B4 you all call me for mentioning the fact that the Polish immigrants are Catholic, I only used it to emphasise the fact that religion plays no part, that the main objective of foreigners is to take advantage of our social system. Hey I am not saying that the needy and the true political asylum seekers should not be aloud asylum, for this I am in total agreement, but being able to come here and take the jobs and houses of the National population, just because they have become part of the EU is madness, the country cannot sustain this influx, over 700,000 Poles alone, how can our economy cope with such a dramatic shift.

it is not racist or bigoted to bring these issues to light, it is rational and logical! what do all the goody PC brigaders think is going to happen? what is that you say? we can move there? but why would we want to move to a place that everybody i leaving in their droves? not exactly a good advertisement, plus why should I?

Answer 4

I may be about to ruffle a few feathers with this reply but this is simply my opinion.

Personally I have no problems with immigration. Either from a racial, cultural, colour, religion or creed perspective.

However, I do wonder why Britain is expected to allow virtually anyone who wishes to come to Britain in, whereas there are strict rules and limitations in many countries, including most EU countries, Australia, NZ and Canada.

Britain is much too small and we are bursting at the seams with so many non British people arriving and it is about time that those countries who have far more space and resources took their fair share. France for example has plenty of room per head of population.

I also believe that anyone wishing to become British subjects should be given a limited time (say two years) to learn the language and learn something of the history and culture of Britain.

Also if they come of their own volition, they should not be permitted entry unless they can prove that they can support themselves and they should not be entitled to benefits. This is no more than other countries insist on.

If however they claim to be asylum seekers and this can be proved, I have no problem with allowing them a state benefit for a very limited time to allow them to find work and support themselves.

If a non Brit wants to settle in this country, I have no problem with that but out of respect for their new found home, they should have the common courtesy to learn something about us especially our language.

In the 1970's when I was working for the Industrial Tribunals, a Polish immigrant who arrived in Britain just after WW2 brought a claim for unfair dismissal against his employer.

This man had been in Britain for nearly 30 years and had not even bothered to learn our language. We had to employ an interpreter to hear his evidence and that cost the tax payer a fortune. There appeared to be no educational or mental reason why this man did not, or would not learn our language.

I am sorry, but I just cannot consider this is right.

Incidentally he did win his case.

Anyone who feels Britain is where they want to live should be prepared and willing to show it by simply learning the language and a little about their adopted home.

Poseidon

Answer 5

A valid point - Enoch Powell was on eof the best Conservative PM's we never had and his famous "rivers of blood" was not anti -immigrant (I was alive at the time) - he was pointing out that if you allow lots of immigration of people from very different cultures (and he was specifically referring to Afro-Caribbean immigration at the time) and you do not manage the employment and housing issues and the expectations of the indigenous people then you will cause racism and racist violence. He was shouted down and sacked but he was right - the BNP and others cash in on the fears of people just as he predicted - and in the 60's and 70's we had the whole skinhead thing.

To insist on discussing the issues around immigration is not racist - that's like saying discussion of state ownership issues makes you a communist or discussing religious rights makes you a bigot. Of course it can but the discussion must be had.

Answer 6

Because it is considered to be politically a no no and it is a freedom which appears to be a thing of the past you are able to say anything you like as long as it does not upset the established order of things I could be wrong but I doubt it and once freedoms are eroded in this manor it has a habit of creeping up and before you can wipe your eyes Wham-mo!!! you will get don for letting off a hotty in public

Answer 7

Turk, you are right, the problem is Cameron is no better than Brown and is dictating the policy himself rather than from the grass roots. He has made a ruling that 25% of those selected to be candadates at the next general ellection must be Gay. Now I have no objection to Gay people but I'll be darned if I will let anybody push Gay rights on me. The grass roots of theparty must pick the candadate, not the Tory leader.

ATB Red

Answer 8

Unfortunately you're right.

Powell's speech was never used in it's entirety. Whichever part suited a particular purpose was "extracted" and used by interested parties.

Racists used what suited them, and the anti-racist lobby did likewise.

It is now far too late to view it as a whole because it would never be allowed by those same interested parties to be properly debated.

No doubt I'll get a few thumbs, both up and down for this, from people who think they know what my view is on immigration.

You don't, you're just doing the same thing, reading into it what you want to believe.

Answer 9

to those of you who condemn gay marriage, right this is my question: what makes 2 human beings extra healthful to be married? Why ought to a guy and a woman be married? the respond ought to be love, dedication and dedication. Too usually adult men and lady are married with the absence of those, that's why 50% of heterosexual marriages lead to divorce. Heterosexuals use the privilege of marriage so freely, and yet refuse to permit those of a separate orientation an identical. and don't attempt to furnish me that sh*t approximately how homosexuality is "unnatural". some individuals are born with an imbalance of testosterone or estrogen. to boot, that's no longer as though comparable intercourse coupling is a clean element. there are a number of information in historical Greece of homosexuality. a real dating should not be based completely on actual intimacy besides. Love ought to are available in particular else. If a gay couple is in love, they ought to be waiting to get carry of the criminal and non secular privileges a marriage provides. Homosexuals are not only "gay" or "lesbian". they are human beings, only as crammed with aims, desires, and desires as any at present person. that's user-friendly unfair to tell them their love is an abomination. Sorry if this would not answer your question, yet i believe that a number of the lack of expertise interior the solutions right here might desire to be addressed.

Answer 10

Yes. A forth right candidate is preferable. We HAVE to stop illegal immigrants from crossing our borders by the 1000s