Are masculists interested in defying/challenging stereotypes at all?

Question

Seems to be, Feminism has long been interested in challenging stereotypes, arguing that women shouldn't feel forced to conform to society's standards regarding what a woman SHOULD be, if she doesn't feel it fits with who she really is.

But from what I see from people on this forum who consider themselves "masculists," men who defy gender stereotypes are considered "feminized" or "brainwashed." Are there masculists who are interested in defying stereotypes of what it means to eb a male in western society? How do you feel about men who behave in what might be considered more "feminine" ways? And if masculism doesn't have much tolerance for, or think too highly of traditionally "feminine" characteristics in men, is it really that liberating? Or is it more confining?

bornagain makes an interesting point. I'd be interested to hear what the men on this forum have to say in response to that. Do you really care about "masculism" at all? Do you think he speaks for the majority of you who talk about "masculism" around here?

Because honestly, I think some men here make good point about men's rights, for example, in regards to equal custody rights regardless of gender. Does this relate to the "masculist" movement at all?

Answer 1

There are plenty of men who subscribe to the "feminine" ways, they're called gay.

Answer 2

Here's a good article (2000) on masculists (http://www.health.columbia.edu/pdfs/men_masculinities.pdf)

The men's rights groups started in the 70s (some before that) and many re-evaluate their gender roles. Some arose with some new age - drumming, etc.

XY Online has good articles and discussions on it.

It's typically the Father's Rights groups thtat want the equal custody -- be CAREFUL - while it sounds like they want equality, many in this particular group (I do not mean all fathers - I mean in the negative FR groups) really want to control their ex-wives and pay less child support. Many are batterers. They tend to attack women's services (which would help men - they can provide referrals or help - some offer beds to men) - see the case in Calif where they sued domestic violence shelters - they claim women cause 1/2 DV (no credible source will back that) - they claim women lie and make false accusations of DV and rape - in sum, they want to turn back time and regain their male priveleges. Anyway, there is a problem today with batterers getting custody of their children as a result of joint custody and many feminists are unaware of much of what these groups are doing.

Answer 3

Initially, I thought this was a real 'no-brainer,' until I read your details, and it becomes a rather interesting question.

I think the idea of gender stereotypes applies pressure to both sides of the gender fence. These days, I think there is more pressure for men to conform than women. Before anybody goes crazy on me for that (pressure on men!? Preposterous! Men run the world, so we can do whatever we want, right?

Nope. If you do not make a certain income, you are a washout by nearly anyone's standards. If you don't promote particular stances on all sorts of subjects, or behave in a particular way, in particular situations, you can expect to be lambasted by both men and women. The truth is that 'society' puts pressure on both males and females to behave in certain ways. In the case of men, this is almost always linked to our readiness to 'go to war' on any given subject.

If someone challenges our ideals (even intellectually) we are supposed to fight it out. If anything stands in the way of our access to the things we are supposed to want or find valuable (usually money/power/success related) we are supposed to charge down the opposition and kick open whatever doors it takes. If a desirable woman crosses our path, we are supposed to stop at nothing to 'score,' or be maligned, or at least vulgarly display our attraction in the form of derogatory chatter. (in this, I think men and women are more similar than anyone would like to admit!) i.e.: 'Oh I would *blank* that *blank* until her *blank* came out her *blank*,' that sort of rubbish. For a woman, the subject of the chatter changes, just not the necessity.

Sadly, even though many women will stand up and say that such a standard is wrongheaded and unfair, often, those same women will lose respect for their men if they do not display sufficiently manly behavior at the appropriate times. Frequently, a woman's attraction to a man is closely related to the ease with which he defies her.

So, I think that ALL of us should, to some extent, 'buck the system,' and endeavor to be what we think is right and good, regardless of peer expectations, thus, eventually, changing society's ideas about what is and isn't apprporiate behavior, regardless of gender. This has worked well for the women's equality movement, but I know many man see this as the 'luxury' of being a woman. To be a man, you must face every challenge directly, not subvert it (by stereotypical ideal). It is always preferable to attack and defeat opposition, rather than 'weasel' around it. Or, at least, this is the attitude you must contend with, as a male.

Generally, I think more masculists are trying to re-enforce the male stereotype, rather than change it or take it down, although, thankfully, violence and aggression are no longer the end-all standard of male behavior.

Excellent question, and I really enjoyed the opportunity to think about it.

Answer 4

This is an interesting question. From what I understand, some antis are interested in challenging stereotypes. Some challenge the father/nurturer stereotype- (that men can't be "good nurturers" toward their children. They want it recognized that men CAN be good nurturers.) But, at the same time, I hear the same men saying that they are wary of men becoming "feminized," and they equate responsibilities of nurturing and parenting as having "female" properties. So perhaps with the "clash" of these two ideas, they need to realize that being a nurturer doesn't mean you're feminine or will be feminized. It seems many ideas the antis have are great, but they directly conflict with other ideas they seem to hold so dear. I wonder how the conflict is to be resolved? Will they decide it is, after all, it is "manly" to be a nurturer, or, will they decide it's "unmanly" and abandon the idea? Will antis re-define the idea of what it is to be "a man"? Or will they focus instead on humanism? Are they afraid to let go of traditionally "male" points of view (gender expectations)- and if they do, will stereotypes then be more easily broken? Will the conflicts that masculists face (in eliminating stereotypes) be easy or hard to overcome- for them (internally) and/or for society (externally)?

Answer 5

First, it must be said that mascul-ism is no more than a counterpart and antidote to femin-ism. Supposedly femin-ism is fighting for women's "rights" as mascul-ism is fighting for men's "rights". Of course all this begs the question as to what "rights" really amount to, but let's leave that aside as it departs too far from the question.

My own view is that feminism's perception of "manliness" and masculism's perception of "womanliness" are so often at odds with the reality.

As an "equalist" I believe that the twain between men and women can only ever meet when all people step outside the feminist and masculist organizations and the stereotypes and constructs that such organizations have created.

Answer 6

Who wants to admit they are a masculinist, when you have male posters accusing them of being "gay" if they want to be anything other than a "manly man"? It's sad that other men are masculinists worst enemy, not women or feminists.

It seems masculinists are as varied as feminists, some want to change gender stereotypes, some could care less, and others are very traditional, gender role-wise.

On the other hand, the father's rights groups are more likely to be anti-feminist, anti-women, and extremely "gender traditional", but not all. Whew, and they say feminists are angry-take a look at some of those father's rights groups. They really hate women. But then, so do some of the Men's Rights Activists:

Here's a rant from Angry Harry about what Men's Rights Activists should do to fight the evils of feminism:

"Furthermore, MRAs should have no moral reservations about attacking very viciously those people who support the feminist agenda. After all, apart from demonising, disadvantaging and discriminating against all men, these people are costing us billions of dollars every year and they are causing a great deal of misery throughout most of society (e.g. see The Benefits of Feminism).

And, finally, MRAs should never forget that one of the main aims of those who support the feminist agenda is to break down the relationships between men, women and children - regardless of the consequences; and even though, for most people, good relationships are the most important aspects of their lives."

I couldn't even begin to imagine how messed up this guy is:
http://www.angryharry.com/esgeneratingheat.htm

Here's some Father's Rights Groups that had to be disbanded since they had group members who wanted to kidnap the Prime Minister's kid, among other things:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,182102,00.html

Here's some of the various legal problems Father's Rights Groups have gotten into over the last few years, for bomb hoaxes, and harassing and intimidating people, among other issues: http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,11026,1028528,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2150665.stm
http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/news/local/general/militant-fathers-vow-to-fight-on/167122.html

Answer 7

I would never self identify as a masculinist.

The word feminism means : 1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

Which covers mens rights in there too. Equality. I am not so insecure in my identity that I need to call myself a "masculinist" because I can't stand the femi prefix.

I would describe myself as a mens rights advocate, a person who believes in equality in law, and social justice.

The other issue I have with masculinists is that those who so identify seem to fall into 3 broad categories

1) Feminist men who don't like being "femi"
2) Men who want their rights to be put ahead of womens
3) Misogynists operating by stealth.

As for how men behave - in "feminine" ways - well yeah, there's a continuum for all of us, I have no issue with it. Secure enough in my own skin for the perception of those who take issue with emotionally capable men not to bother me. Some masculinists do seem to get very emotional about emotional men don't they? No sense of irony.

Answer 8

1

Answer 9

If they are a true masculist, yes, they probably are.

If they are just a sexist troll just trying to make people mad, then no. They just get a rise out of posting ridiculous stuff.

Answer 10

The 'ideal' is for both genders to strive towards greater androgyny. People who reject strictly defined gender role expectations and choose instead to 'do their own thing' are much healthier and happier than those who don't.

The research says that too much "baaah...baaah...baaaah..."

is baaaaad.