Americans - can anyone sort this out? Why is it that...?

Question

1. Why are obsene, derogatory terms targetting women such as "feminazi' freely used by the pop-culture media? Why does a racist DJ lose his job when he sputters out the words 'nappy-headed ho's' in reference to a black women's sports team? Would he have lost his job had he just referred to these women as 'ho's'? Or would that have been 'allowed to slide'? The fact remains that the 'nappy-headed' racist slur got him into hot water, NOT the misogynist slur. Why is this? Why is only one considered hate speech?

2. When an older non-American female refers to a young, white male poster on this forum as 'boy' or 'son' - it's condescention, while - at the same time
When an older, non-American female refers to a young, black male poster on this forum as 'boy' or 'son' (and she not even yet aware the individual she is addressing is black)- it's racism and 'hate speech'?

3. Why is it that suggesting to a long-time work white colleague (friendly relationship) whose dress is sticking to her pantyhose and putting on public display the lines of her underwear that perhaps 'wearing a slip under that dress so that it hangs better' is at worst, rude
while
saying precisely the same thing under the same circumstances to a black woman is 'racist'?

Why is it that Oprah Winfrey can devote an entire hour to this 'bad dressing style' - primarily seen amongst young black women - and this is NOT racist. Hell, it's not even considered rude?

Thoughts?

Juniper - I live in the Great White North. There is NO WAY IN HELL our pop-culture media could get away with this misogynist crap. Their license would be pulled by the CRTC pronto! I'm quite certain that in England you can 'talk' like this either. It DOES appear to be 'an American thing' because people too often confuse the right to freedom of the press with the right to malign identifiable groups.

Texas Horse Person, well said and a point to ponder: "Why is it that only Whites can be racists?"

Would just like to add that not every woman would find my observation that 'static cling is making your dress stick to your pantyhose and it looks...bad" offensive. I would be twisting around to view my rear end asking "OMG -really? How humiliating!"

In all fairness to the others, Texas Horse Person, I just scrolled to the end of your 'far too lengthy post' and read that. It is rather offensive to me also.

Jupiter; Rap music isn't popular in the UK. American bands like the 'Scissor Sisters' enjoy tremendous success there - success they would never have enjoyed in the US. Their lead singer has lots to say on the subject (forgot the guy's name but seen him interviewed a number of times).

Franzia - I am having problems with your definition of 'racism'.
I think too much political correctness has obscured the meaning of the word. In it's pure and unadulterated form it refers to "discrimination or prejudice based on race." Sweet, simple and straight to the point.

pumakub - it's obvious that the subject matter under discussion is of no interest to you, and you've contributed nothing, and have no intention of doing so...so 'bye-bye'.

Rainbow - same thing. It's boring. You're not contributing anything to the discussion, and have no intention of doing so. I am entitled to ask question even if some people may not think they are politcally correct. If you don't like that then your option is not to respond. Bye.

franzia - I am only suggesting that we (the prevailing culture) has a tendency to add layer upon layer to words - which may only serve to obscure the true definition of the term. Same thing applies to the term 'feminism' which I view as a
belief in the social and political equality of the sexes" - anything ELSE other people may 'hang' from the term deviates from the original - and true - meaning of the term. You have added value judments in your interpretation of the term 'racist/racism'. They were not there to begin with, and they don't belong. My definition is accurate in all cases whereas yours is fuzzy, vague - and open to interpretation. When you originally posted your response "Hutu" and "Tutsi" sprang to mind.

Gnu - that's nice but it fails to address any part of my question. It's not about hip-hop or rap. Everybody would agree that finding rap lyrics objectionable is pretty mainstream, standard stuff. It's nothing exceptional, or out of the ordinary.

Yes, Tera. I hold an undergraduate history degree. You have been unable - or unwilling - to answer my question preferring instead to lecture on "American history - the Nasty Side" (which is the sort of politically-correct response I would expect to hear from someone running for public office). I am having trouble pulling out of some of you that the definition of racism - as I posted - is correct absolutely and always. If racism CAN'T run both ways, I should have asked FRANZIA BASED ON HER OBSERVATION REGARDING ABOUT AMERICAN HISTORY- THE POWER IMBALANCE - then why is it BY THE SAME TOKEN that sexism CAN? Haven't we lived in patriarchial societies since the dawn of the agrarian society with men holding the balance of power? This convoluted logic...fails to convince and is inherently contradictory.

Please excuse caps (not screaming, just want to get Franzia's attention) and poor grammar, must cook supper now! Soooo...'discuss'.

Franzia and Tera; everytime you add a new level of meaning to a term you are adulterating it. It is no longer what it WAS, what it was intended to be. I think this is what has happened: people have stopped wondering "wtf - I thought it meant this...!" This is not a deliberate process, but it is an important one because it nobody knows what they are talking about anymore. It is insidious. Franzia, you have told me that the definition of 'racism' is limited to "white people who oppress black people as white people have done so much throughout American history". The new definition of 'racism' in America may be the politically correct 'version' - but it is an innacurate, incorrect definition all the same and you won't find it in an English language dictionary in ANY English speaking country.

Gnu - all I hear from you is "I, I, I, I, I" This question isn't about you; try to stay on track. I am permitting you to post here if you think you have something useful to contribute - don't abuse it. You don't reciprocate anyway so I am under no obligation - moral or otherwise.

OK GNU - WHERE IS EVIDENCE OF RACIST THINGS I HAVE SAID??? GOOD GAWD, THIS IS RIDICULOUS. SO MANY ACCUSATIONS AND NOT EVEN ONE FRICKN' EXAMPLE, NOT A SCINTIALLA OF EVIDENCE. IF I AM A RABID RACIST THEN WHY ARE YOU HAVING PROBLEMS MAKING YOUR CASE? COULD IT BE BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE ONE (DU-UH).

I can find examples of when I have addressed white boys as 'boy' or 'son' or 'kid' or even 'child' - AND SO DO OTHER POSTERS. I don't do 'politically correct' so you'll just have to get over it.

THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE TO PROVE ANYTHING. GET OFF MY BACK, ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Gnu: "Your jokes about making grits and dressing as a Klansman for Halloween, and your comparing me to OJ Simpson are there for all to see...", NO they are NOT. You have provided NO LINKS, nothing verifiable. You have exposed yourself as a liar. Now shut up, once and for all, you lying toad.

I have given you EVERY opportunity to prove yourself. Why do you do this? Is this little game fun for you? Now, with your inability to support your claims the truth has come out. What a WEASEL!

Sorry Gnu - I see that you posted references to 2 rabidly racist remarks I made. You were only able to locate 2 - and I gave you all day. Here they are:
here it is:

RACIAL SLUR #1
“That's evidence that you haven't ALWAYS had me
blocked. It isn't evidence you NEVER blocked me. In
any case, why is that even relevant. Suppose I block
you…”.

And I respond with the entire post below:
"Suppose I block you and you never blocked me (which I
do not grant). So what?"
OMG - that fits right in with OJ's book "IF I did It"
- toooo funny."

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071030233846AAv6Jrp&r=w#QcRbUlr9E2RddF7xbXZT

RACIAL SLUR #2
“I think part of the problem is that victims are at
loathe to accept the fact that they too can be
victimisers. Like Israeli skinheads - go figure, ha?

Ooops - am I sounding racist? Crikey!

Now where did I put my KKK costume...???
Happy Halloween!”

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Au9w1nveaXKRc_sItYZDOXwYxgt.;_ylv=3?qid=20071030222508

Answer 1

Texas Horse Lover seems a bit angry. I think that ALL racism and misogyny is wrong; no matter what color or creed it comes from or is directed towards. Americans (which is what all citizens of America are regardless or your ancestry) need to grow up and get along....for real; not just in public, or to be polite, but really get along. We need less finger pointing, like that of Texas Horse Lover, and more people just trying to get past the past and making the future better for everyone.

Answer 2

Remember this America is only 230 years old and is a baby compared to the European countries and that is why their societies are far superior to ours. We need to grow up here and stop being so damm egotistical about how great this country is because I have news for you IT'S NOT! I lived in Spain for 2 years and was amazed at how great the people are there and how important family is. They also have far more freedom then we do here. This PC crap has got to stop! Everyone wants to whine about something here and it getting old real quick. If something offends you DON'T LISTEN or WATCH!! Because what offends you might not offend others. Plus how can you let words bother you? I mean are you that insecure that if someone calls you a nappy head ho you can't laugh at it? I can understand if it is said in a malicious way but I don't see people using that term like that! Long before all this Imus B.S. I was calling the 55 year old white women I work with a nappy head and we laughed because she does have a nappy head so. When I here jokes about Irish or white people I laugh and enjoy them I don't really think about it as a racist thing at all! The funny thing is it is true a lot of the time and I am not offended. Who cares but because some idiots out there say "You have offended me!" It becomes and on going battle which is just plain dumb. As I said all you have to do is NOT LISTEN or WATCH!!! Don't ruin other people fun for your own selfish cause!

Answer 3

The term "feminazi" has a very specific meaning to me as well as millions of others. When used, most people, I believe, understand exactly what is meant by the term: an overbearing, pro-woman sexist.

Imus slurred both blacks and women at the same time. Either one or the other would have been a bad choice for his career but both together is certain social suicide.

One cannot utter a slur against anyone other than whites or males and not expect punishment from the "thought police".

Answer 4

Apples and oranges.

Criticizing an ideology such as using the term "feminazi" is not the same as racist hate speech.

Also, hate can become evident by the content, context, attitude, intent, and motive.

Two people can say or do the same thing, but have different attitudes, intents, and motives in doing so.

When the attitude, intent, and motive is evidently intended to personally demean and insult, based on something other than an ideology (which can change), that person will often be called on it.

Sometimes, when a person harbors a superior attitude toward minorities, it becomes evident in not just what but HOW they say it.

Who knows whether someone is American or not?

Unless they repeatedly make a point of reminding us that they are convinced that America and Americans are inferior in so many ways, and their country and way of life are clearly superior.

After a while, we dumb Americans (of all colors) get sick of that supercilious attitude.

Answer 5

1. The term "Feminazi" is used because America believes in free speech. That doesn't mean that the user hasn't been called on the carpet for the term quite a bit for it, though. Also, the DJ got in trouble not just for saying "nappy-headed", but for calling the women "ho's".

2. It's condescending to call any man a "boy", or a "son". It's also the context in how it was used in the sentence.

3. Why do you keep bringing up the dress thing? It seems like the white woman was more of a friend than the black woman was, so therefore she wasn't offended by your comments.

Why not ditch this losing argument and quit being so mean-spirited in your questions?

Answer 6

Racism, especially as expressed at or toward African-Americans is something that most people in this country have ZERO tolerance for, whether it be shown in milder forms or not, it is completely unacceptable in our culture. As I have already explained to you, this country has a lengthy, shameful history of oppression against blacks. To understand the enormity of it, and the brutality, I would suggest you do some reading on the subject. Maybe then you could begin to understand why it is so deplorable to so many to express racism in any form in today's society.

Most of us would agree that the holocaust was a truly monumental horror for those who had to endure it. Slavery in this country is akin to the holocaust. Blacks weren't systematically murdered in mass, but truthfully, this might have been kinder than the things blacks were forced to endure. They were treated like cattle. Families were separated. They were tortured, brutalized, murdered, beaten, refused an education, not allowed to marry, their children were subjected to abuse, and worked into the ground. Black women (and young black girls) were frequently raped. Oppression cannot get any worse than what these people endured. Read about this. Learn about the slave ships, too. Read about life for blacks in America: their struggle for civil rights...the long road of progression. Their struggle is not over. Racism and prejudice still exist in our society. It is shameful, detestable, deplorable- but it continues. Is it really any wonder why even the use of the word "n*gger" would bring such a heated response?

Edit: Please understand, my answer is not an attempt to minimize the issue of sexism. In many ways, racism and sexism have many parallels. Neither should be tolerated, in my opinion. But the truth is, there is no other culture existing in America that has endured as severe oppression than that of African Americans. This is why racism is such a sensitive subject here.

EDIT: Object: why is it racism is intolerable and sexism is not? You ask a fair question. Perhaps people in this country do not take the issue of sexism nearly as seriously as they should. You know my stance on sexism. My posts in this forum have made it quite clear. In my own personal life, I view sexism as intolerable. Why am I on Y/A speaking out about this subject in a "Women and Gender Studies" forum? Because the message needs to be heard. Sexism is a serious issue. It's been made a joke in this country for far too long.

EDIT: I have not "redefined" racism here. All I am saying is one must be careful of what one says. Even if you meant nothing racist, certain words can be interpreted that way. I don't think YOU are a racist. But I do think you could try to develop a little more sensitivity to how others might perceive your comments. You would get upset if someone referred to you as "girl", would you not? And isn't it just possible that someone who refers to you as "girl" may not mean it in a sexist way? I think you and Gnu are having a misunderstanding because of semantics, not racism. In America, this happens a lot.

Answer 7

Yes, why can only whites be racist?
Some people have said that it is because of the past. Because of what we've done to other races many years ago.
Think of these two scenarios: A little Black girl is being teased at school because of her darker skin. Does it hurt her feelings? Yes. Absolutely.
Next scenario: A little white girl is being teased at school because of her lighter skin. Does her feelings get hurt? Of course they do. They hurt just like the black girl's does.
Do these girls know why they are being treated that way? Of course not. They don't know about slavery or segregation. All they know is that it's impossible for them to make friends, just because of their skin color.
The past is in the past. These girls had nothing to do with what happened so many years ago. When the white girl looks at the black girl, they don't see the color of the skin or the eyes or hair. They see a friend.
Wouldn't it be great if people just retained that innocence their entire lives?

Answer 8

Well, you make a good point. I agree wholeheartedly that sexism often slips through, unnoticed, while racism is easily recognized and challenged. Are you saying that this is only a problem in America?

EDIT: Isn't rap music, with it's anti-woman themes, popular all over the world? Like in the UK, for example? My husband's step-sibs are from Surrey and rap music is very popular with British teens.

Answer 9

One cannot answer this question because the meaning of 'American' isn't clear:

- A person or attribute of South or North America
- A person or attribute of the indigenous peoples of South or North America
- A person or attribute of the United States of America: the political correct term
is 'US-American'

Answer 10

I recall much of the discussion of the Imus case and it was noted by (iirc) Bryan Williams that many people of all races were outraged because they saw in these young women their own daughters being attacked for nothing more than trying to play a game to the best of their abilities.

I also recall that the discussion soon shifted to certain elements of hip-hop culture in which similar derogatory language is used concerning women.

For my part, I regularly criticize those elements of hip-hop culture. It is deeply distressing the level of misogyny in some of the lyrics and in some of the videos.

I tell people that if white men were portraying black women this way, they'd be rightly attacked for trying to destroy our communities and undermine our relationships. It's no more acceptable when we, as black men, engage in such behavior.

Here's what I tell other black men: If you'd want to pop a cap in white guy's a$$ for saying it about your sister or your mother, then you shouldn't be saying it yourself. And you shouldn't be buying this crap either.

EDIT

If I addressed your question more fully, I'd have to point out your misrepresentations. For example, when I challenged you for calling me "boy" you made a big show of how I am ALWAYS announcing that I am black. So to now say you weren't even aware shows your level of dishonesty.

However, I was attempting to be conciliatory.

Incidentally, I'm 35, so I am not that much younger than you. Certainly not a "boy".

BTW, Imus has repeatedly engaged in racist and sexist insults. The reason this was singled out was that the targets weren't celebrities, they weren't holders of public office. They weren't figures of controversy. They were student athletes.

And if the best example of a double standard you can find is that attacks on people who are black AND female get condemned, that's not very compelling.

And the fact that the discussion shifted to gangsta rap and the use of "ho" gives lie to your claim that only the racial aspect was being criticized. "Ho" offended people as well.

EDIT

And in MY community it IS exceptional. It will get you labeled an "Oreo" or an "Uncle Tom" if you criticize those aspects of hip-hip culture.

EDIT

First, the question was referring to me, as you well know, because you've been raising the issue elsewhere of being challenged for some of the racist things you've said to me and the example of calling me "boy" was clearly part of that.

Second, I have also been addressing the rest of your post. If you can't see that, fine. I am sure that others can.

Third, you have no obligation to allow me to answer your questions. Quite correct. Please, do feel free to block me.

EDIT

I'm not ON your back. I haven't been posting questions all day about this. If you'd desisted from bringing up my race whenever I post a response to a question, I would have dropped it then. Your jokes about making grits and dressing as a Klansman for Halloween, and your comparing me to OJ Simpson are there for all to see and they can judge for themselves.