Going behind the bit?

Question

I have an Arabian mare that is excellent at the trot, extends and keeps her head on the vertical, but when it comes to the canter, she goes behind the bit, and off the vertical. I use a kimberwick with a low port... I wont use snaffles because she pulls and practically takes the reins out of my hands. Tips please!

I started out in a snaffle and my Arabian horse trainer moved me to the kimberwick. Even in a snaffle, she goes out of the vertical.

Oh and her collection is perfect, but if I let my reins out a little bit, she speeds up. But when I gather my reins to slow her down, she gets out of the vertical.

I have been schooled in bareback for at least 13 years... so I believe my seat cues are in check... I have even trained my horse to ride with just a rope around her neck... I have noticed that she just doesnt like snaffles at all... she bites down on them and the roof of her mouth is sore from the joint ( I know this because the next time I put it in, she lifts her head in the air.)...

Answer 1

Arabian horses have sensitive, small mouths and she is evading pressure from mouth piece of the Kimblewick but running through it when you give the reign.

Try a Boucher (hanging cheek snaffle) with a double link - lozenge or flat link (French link).

My reasoning is this: while it exerts a small amount of pol pressure, it actually LIFTS the mouthpiece up and takes the pressure off the bars of the mouth and the tongue, but you still have breaks (stopping power), because of the longer cheek pieces.

I'd also follow the advice about transitions and giving with your reins and riding her into it. Also please do look at her profile, her pol should be the highest point. As someone else said, she could well have a "broken" outline, bending two thirds of the way up her neck.

Good luck :D

The information about pol pressure and not being able to work on the bit is absolutely incorrect. If you look at a double bridle, the Weymouth is all about pol pressure and when you become a REALY good rider, with a highly trained horse - this is all you use.

You can also use a Pelham bit - always with two reins to achieve true collection, and a horse carrying himself in a correct outline but it would not be suitable for your purpose

A Kimblewick bit is not a severe bit, although it is possible to hurt a soft mouth with any bit - it is the hands which matter more than the bit

Answer 2

Lots of transitions. Lots and lots and lots. Also- how are your hands at the canter? give her a bit of rein (move your hands forward an inch or two) and see if she stretches her head out more- if she stretches her head down and nose out- that is a good thing.

To get her to correct position, you need to push her more forward- while she may have an excellent trot, the main reasons for behind the bit are either too tight of rein pressure, not forward or not using hind end correctly (usually not the case with an Arab).

As you ask for more canter, it may be faster, but check to see if she comes better into the bit. Once she is using her muscles correctly, you can slow her down into the correct position. Use your legs (or whip) to speed up her back end and half halt with one rein- vary to see which is the best for your horse. Being under the bit is pretty common for arabs at the canter, so there has to be literature out there for it as well if you want some other exercises.

Answer 3

1) You cannot have collection and true contact on a bit like a Kimberwicke. This bit provides punishing pressure to the horse's poll. True collection cannot be achieved by punishing the poll.

2) Your horse is OBVIOUSLY not on the bit. I say Obviously b/c this bit FORCES the head down, instead of encouraging the horse to seek the contact.

3) If you won't use the snaffle because this mare is too much for you to handle, then you need a different horse, or your mare needs to be trained by someone with a stronger seat. There's no need to use a harsher bit.
If the mare pulls, drive her into the contact. Make her understand that pulling = work. I promise you, she'll stop yanking when she realizes she works harder for that than she does when she's consistent.

She's completely evading your bit aids. I also am educated enough to assume that you have a weak seat aid. If you're relying on your bit to ensure the mare doesn't pull, then you don't have a strong enough core to sit on the saddle and hold her in.

You use your seat to control the horse, not the bit.

Your mare isn't even ON the bit to be BEHIND the bit.

Get into a nice french-link snafle.
Ride her forward when she pulls.

She will come onto the aids and be on the bit.

And only THEN can you worry about her being BEHIND the bit.

Answer 4

Perhaps this is a little different view point but - if you don't have control with a light bit you won't really have control with a stronger bit. It will just be that much easier to hurt your horse.

Practice one-reign stops over and over. At a walk until she stops immediately. Practice stopping and backing up immediately with god collections.

At a walk.

Until she's perfect.

Then at a trot - until she's perfect.

Then at a canter - staying nice and collected. If she breaks her collection gather her back up with the lightest possible pressure on the rein and give her am immediate release as soon as she responds. The release is her cue that she's done the correct thing.

Check out the John Lyons website for some awesome information on ORS. Clinton Anderson has some very interesting stuff on collection at speed as well.

Angela <><

Answer 5

I trained Arabians. Go back to the snaffle. Loose the torture chamber bridle. "practically takes the reins out of my hands" She wants you out of her mouth! Anytime a horse pulls at the rein, they're asking for a little relief. Work on your hands. Sounds like you're keeping your balance by hanging on her mouth. Make your hands soft. It's give and take. Take is you pulling. Give is you rewarding by releasing the pleasure.

Arabians are very fast learners. When other breeds came in for training it usually took 4 times the time and effort to teach them what Arabs learned in 2-3 sessions. They also have a long memory, they don't forget your mistakes.

Have you tried riding with no hands? Arabs are very sensitive to your body language. Try doing figure 8's without hands, turn your head and look in the direction you want to go, your shoulders, seat, and legs will cue her because they are in the exact position they should be. Dare you to try and be amazed.

Hug your mare for me.

Answer 6

I would personally work on figure eights, circles and sirpentines and really focus on suppling her out. She is comming behind the verticle (which is not perfect collection...) to get away from accepting your contact. I would almost go back to where you started and really focus on suppling her out on the flat. This is so important not only for your ride, but for her athletisism too - she needs to work from behind and not rely on her fore.

My mom used to breed arabians and I grew up riding them. I find they have a much harder time developing the base of their neck because they have a tendancy to drop below the vertical and come behind the bit or..in other words as I mentioned above, avoiding your contact. I would one, switch her bit back to a snaffle of some sort (try a french link) and really supple her out - she may be avoiding the contact bc of the bit as well (not very common but, its possible). Its healthy to swtich their bit once or twice a year. And if shes pulling on a snaffle and resisiting, then thats a whole other issue you need to correct as that on its own is unacceptable.

Good Luck! : 0)

Answer 7

If her collection was perfect, then she would not be speeding up when you loosen the reins. What it sounds like is she is broke over at the poll, but is still stiffening her jaw and hollowing her back. Truer collection does not just mean broke over at the poll and the face vertical. Collection is a balance between impulsion (driving forward with your legs) and checking (holding back with your hands). True collection also causes a horse to drive under under themselves with the back legs and this creates the rounding in the back. if you are leaning forward, then she has the advantage because you are off balance and out of position. Sit back deep in the saddle (on your back pockets) The bit has nothing to do with it. If she is running thru the bit, then you are not checking her hard enough. And this is done in a bump, bump, bump motion, not a steady pull. If she stops then you are not putting enough leg on her. It goes on this sequence. Leg, rein, rein (see saw motion). When she slows, give her her head as a reward. If she speeds back up, the go back to the drive froward, bump back. It may take a bit, but as her muscles develop and she gets the idea, she will slow up and collect properly.

Answer 8

I agree with the poster's comment about snaffles. You need to go back and reinforce the basic training in the snaffle. Too many american riders/trainers move forward in a horses training and end up with problems like this.

Answer 9

I worked with Arabs for several years...they have a tendency of going behind the vertical easily. I would go back to the snaffle with a flash or drop nose band and work on driving her forward with your legs, even if that means a real fast gait initially and her going above the vertical...then, slowly begin to ask her to collect again, but not enough that she pops behind the vertical..

This can take alot of work for her to understand what you want, and you will be unhappy with her gaits for awhile, but eventually it will come together.

Answer 10

Try getting an instructer who specificly specilizes in arabians. Arabians are more hot tempered then other breeds and need special care.