According to Zen, there is no subject( I /me ), then who is it thats feels pain?...and.....?

Question

could it be that the natural state of existence is pain /suffering, and human life is an escapre from it?

Answer 1

When Buddhist talk about no subject, meaning no ME or I they are referring to Atta (or Atman in Sanskrit). The literal meaning is Self, but it refers to the "soul", "sprit" or "ego". That is to say that there is no metaphysical self referring to an unchanging, permanent essence that is inherent in beings.

It the belief in a self (metaphysical self or soul) that leads to ignorance and causes a great deal of suffering. Buddhist cosmology suggests that just as individual waves are made of the same water as the rest of the ocean and mountains are made from the same dirt and rock as the rest of the earth, so too are people, animals and all beings made of the same Anatta "non-Self" and just as when water is removed from the wave or dirt from the mountain they no longer exist. Once the Anatta is removed (or accepted in this case) then enlightenment occurs and we enter Nirvana. (that is a state of being where we are at total peace.)

As for the second question, the natural state of existence IS pain. This is the point of the first of the Four Noble Truths:
#1 - Suffering exists in life. That is to say that all of life is suffering. Birth, aging, sickness, death, not getting what pleases us, receiving things that displease us, separation from things that please us, anger, jealousy, sadness, the absence of joy, the absence of harmony, etc... are all forms of suffering. We all suffer and we suffer regularly.
The third of the Four Noble Truths teaches that there is the cessation of suffering and the fourth Noble Truth tells us it is adhering the to the Noble Eightfold Path.

Only when one reaches Nirvana, "extinguishing" will suffering end. Nirvana is not a place or location like heaven, but rather a spiritual attainment or manner of being.

I hope this helps.

Answer 2

The body uses pain to communicate. There really isn't any other type of pain. Thinking about pain and spending vast amounts of time worrying about how to avoid pain is the state most people (imagined subjects) live in which can only be classified as suffering. Pain is only a name given to a thing the body uses to survive in it's environment. Suffering is the imagined memory and fear of something the 'self' has deemed undesirable. The pursuit an escape from this imagined suffering is why there is such a thing as philosophy and religion.

Answer 3

I once had a very painful evening listening to a couple of
pseudo-intellectuals discussing Zen. They both agreed that there was no way to determine if any of us actually exist because the senses can't be trusted. At least that was the
bottom line,after hours of discussion.(I couldn't leave because
the evening was supposed to be related to business.)

I prefer to live by the philosophy of Common Sense. For
example,if there is no subject(you) then who typed this question? Obviously,there is a you. Life is an escape from
pain and suffering?

LOL I don't think so! Look around...

Answer 4

You are "conscious awareness" of observing of the conditioned ego's pain. For there to be no subject, you must become the OBSERVER of the ego's emotional patterns and repeated painful experiences. The more you develop a detached awareness of its fears and attachments - that hold you in painful relationships with others - including their SOURCE, i.e. origin in the past, the more you will be able to stop being overwhelmed by these embedded/programmed electrochemical responses. They control perception, thought and reactions in a closed loop and maintain the feeling of suffering. Illusions about self/others CAUSE a delusional reality. But, it hurts whether your illusions are the cause of it or not.

Answer 5

mr. sadswiss, i do believe you have missed the point.

the "natural state" may indeed be of pain and suffering, but what causes these things? Zen teaches that attachment is what causes pain and suffering, and belief in "I/me" is one of the most ingrained attachments which we have. You feel pain because you believe that you are the one who is there to feel it. if there is no self, there is no pain which is felt by the self. i think your confusion comes from a lack of experience and that fact that you may never have experienced a selfless moment. human life indeed is a struggle for escape from pain./suffering but the escape is not through the self, it is the escape from the self which releases us into freedom of pain and suffering.

Answer 6

when you have dissolved yourself what remains, is supposed to be the reality.And in that phase of no idenditity, you can delink from the impact of the pulls and push of sensory organs.This is what is described by Zen to be free from any pain. There has been an instance in the life of a Jeevan mukta Sri Sadasiva Brahmendra in India , when once his arm was severed by an aggressor, he walked off as usual without showing any sign of agony or pain.Later the person who cut the arm of the saint realizes his folly and ran behind to give back the severed arm.The saint collects it and puts back in the position as if nothing has happened.

Answer 7

I do not know much of Zen Buddhism, but this is a problem in Buddhism. Buddha does not recognise soul, but he talks about rebirth at the same time. He also talks about attachment as the cause of rebirth and death cycle. Attachment implies attachment of the self or soul with earthly objects and the world, but soul is denied.

Perhaps it may be like this. Hinduism treats soul as the ultimate reality itself, and this is not known because of ignorance. Buddha can not give the same status to soul, since Buddha is silent about the existence of God which makes people call Buddhism an athiestic religion. We must remember that Buddhism came into existence as a reformatory process of Hinduism, and he refuses many Hindu principles, the case of soul is also one such thing.

Answer 8

There is no pain, just like there is no I/me, because pain is a perception.

I think the translation of these teachings has been slightly warped. From my understanding, "suffering" is a general state of reaction instead of conscious equanimous action. Not pain. (for example lust is not "painful", but it is in the realm of "suffering")

I think the default for humans is suffering, but this existence can be a path of learning to come out of it.

Answer 9

The physical reality doesn't exist. We all live inside each others memories. Thus, what exists is what we believe to exist. Just remember you are the one that defines it as pain and to what extent. Just don't let it bother you. Everything suffers from the pain of existence, how you deal with it will define who you are.

Answer 10

We are all empty vessels at birth, but through our experiences interpreted by our senses, we fill the vessel. Zen is the path of emptying it so one can be free, to look at the world and experience all things with clarity.

We cannot escape from suffering. We can only realize that suffering is great when we allow ourselves to attach to it.

-Kurtz-