Like I Am Telling You?

Question

I have always mantained that it is utter foolishness to select a goalie in the 1st round of the draft.
It has always seemed to me that for every Luongo or Brodeur, there are 10 Trevor Kidds, Jimmy Waites, Maxime Ouletts or Craig Hilliers. I know many 1st round skaters flop too and the draft is a crapshoot but it seems to me that goalies are more a crapshoot.

Do you think that is an unfair line of thought? What has been your experience with scouting goalies? Harder to scout and predict with a young goalie than a young skater?

It seems to me like a teenage goalie can look spectacular in Junior and College but more of them have a hard time adapting to the NHL. I also know that goalies getting drafted early happens alot more than it used to. It also seems that many good goalies got/get drafted later on and developed better than many stars. (or in CuJo's case, didn't get drafted at all) but guys like Lundqvist or Hasek (different situation I suppose) or Khabibulin or Kiprusoff

So, have you ever had any goalies rated in your top 5?

BTW, hopefully Waite was not your brainfart.

Erica- I just read your answer to the jersey question- can I take back my thumb up? I was wondering when it would surface........but from you? I expected better lol. The Philly Inquirers spin was a little different. I also think football jerseys are not as stupid looking-though I don't wear one. Shame on you. Damn ugly Burghers. Don't make me remind you of a little someone named Draco. LMAO
I don't know why I am so offended, it's not like I am from there. Best looking IMO, Prague and Montreal. Women that is.

Chris LMAO- I am talking reality here, not fantasy.

LITY- Belfour was undrafted too, was he not? Good FA call on your part.

Puckdat- A couple of things come to mind- French Canadians growing up all wanted to be the next Bernie Parent, Pat Roy, Martin Brodeur or whomever the flavour of the era was and the Q is for the most part French. Also, Q goalies usually face alot more shots than the OHL or WHL but the big reason is ALOT of Quebec kids grow up wanting to be goalies. I'd like to see LITY's input on that as well.

Answer 1

I'll provide my answer shortly

Yes, Waite was my brainfart..........but so Ed Belfour...so 1 Hall of Famer out of two ain't bad!

Are goaltenders a waste of a high draft pick. An essay by LITYWIA

More than any other position, there is a huge gap between goaltending at the NCAA/CHL level and goaltending in the NHL. In College and Junior, even though you are playing against your peers, you are only facing 1 or 2 guys who will eventually play a regular shift in the NHL, and that's not enough to get one prepared. At the professional level, everything is faster, and the NHL is faster than the AHL.

My philosophy as a scout has always been to draft whatever the team needs. For the most part, a skater can be inserted into the lineup directly. Goalies cannot be inserted as easily. They tend to need more development to get up to speed.

The other problem with goalies, and drafting them................the organizations needs so few of them. A typical organization only has a need for 5-6 goalies.......and the turnover is every 5-6 years or so. Making it even more of a crap-shoot.

Let's look at Vezina winners
Martin Brodeur - 1st round (20th overall)
Miikka Kiprusoff - 4th round (116th overall)
Jose Theodore - 2nd round (44th overall)
Dominik Hasek - 10th round (207th overall)
Olaf Kolzig - 1st round (19th overall)
James Carey - 2nd round (32nd overall)
Edward Belfour - UNDRAFTED
Patrick Roy - 3rd round (51st overall)
Grant Fuhr - 1st round (8th overall)
Ronald Hextall - 6th round (119th overall)
John Vanbeisbrouck - 4th round (72nd overall)
Pelle Lindbergh - 2nd round (35th overall)
Thomas Barasso - 1st round (5th overall)
Peter Peeters - 8th round (135th overall)
William Smith - 5th round (59th overall)
Richard Sevigny - 7th round (124th overall)
Denis Herron - 3rd round (40th overall)
Michel Larocque - 1st round (6th overall)
Robert Sauve - 1st round (17th overall)
Donald Edwards - 5th round (89th overall)

Notice the following
- Sauve and Edwards were drafted in the same draft...Edwards was the #1
- the number of Vezina winners not drafted in the first round

Since the inception of the draft, only 3 people not drafted in the first round have won the scoring title
1) Bryan Trottier - 2nd round (22nd overall)
2) Martin Saint Louis - UNDRAFTED
3) Wayne Gretzky - WHA PROTECTED

So, if you weren't drafted in the first round (and Gretzky would have been taken #1 as he was ranked first in Central Scouting), you most likely won't win an Art Ross Trophy.

If you weren't drafted in the first round, you MAY STILL win a Vezina


Goalies drafted by Chicago while I was a scout
1970 Gilles Meloche - 5th round, 70th overall, 18yrs, 788GP, 3.64GAA, 20SO
1972 Michael Veisor - 3rd round, 45th overall, 10yrs, 139GP, 4.09GAA, 5SO
1974 Robert Volpe - 6th round, 106th overall - MINOR LEAGUES
1974 Edward Mio - 7th round, 124th overall - 7yrs, 192GP, 4.06GAA, 4SO
1976 John Peterson - 6th round, 99th overall - MINOR LEAGUES
1977 Randolph Ireland - 4th round, 60th overall - 1yr, 2GP, 6.00GAA
1978 Mark Locken - 9th round, 147th overall
1980 James Ralph - 8th round, 162nd overall - MINOR LEAGUER (now broadcaster)
1981 Douglas Chessell - 5th round, 96th overall - MINOR LEAGUER
1983 Dominik Hasek - 10th round, 199th overall - Hall of Fame Credentials
1984 Timo Lekhonen - 5th round, 90th overall
Christopher Clifford - 6th round, 111th - 2yrs, 2GP, 0.00GAA (24 minutes)
1985 Andrew Helmuth - 3rd round, 53rd overall
John Reid - 8th round, 158th overall - MINOR LEAGUER
1987 James Waite - 1st round, 8th overall - 11yrs, 106GP, 3.35GAA, 4SO
1989 Michael Doneghey - 12th round, 237th overall
1991 Roch Belley - 8th round, 176th overall - MINOR LEAGUER

Mike Veisor played 72 games for the Hawks from this list...........and that is the most. Waite played 58, Hasek played 25, Meloche and Clifford played 2 each.

We had a sad goalie record. But Esposito and Belfour made up for it


The Quebec League tends to be a faster league than the rest, and the goalies have to work harder than others. I think a lot of it is as Bob described. Going back to Plante, Quebec children have a long line of goaltenders to emulate...Plante, Dryden, Parent, Roy, Theodore, Thibault, Brodeur.

Yes, Hasek was a special situation. If the same situation were to happen today......Hasek and Tretiak both would have been first round picks. At the time, there was no real hope that they would ever play in North America. In fact, Hasek did not have an agent until 1989.

As for goalies that we had in the top 5
We had Barrasso and Waite as must get goalies. We were unlucky and got the wrong one.

Answer 2

I am a little late answering this one but here goes.

It is only recently that most teams have started looking at drafting goalies in the first round. Traditionally teams did not consider taking a goalie early in the first round. As a result you will end up with more vezina winners from later rounds.

I agree that it is difficult to judge goalie talent early as generally they take longer to develop. Does that mean we should not take the chance on a goalie in round one. Someone else will. I think the key is to remember that goalies take longer to develop and you will make drafting errors. There are also lots of first round errors on forwards and d men. John slaney was drafted ahead of Trevor Kidd.
Wayne Mcbean was drafted ahead of Jimmy Waites, Barrett Heisten was selected ahead of Maxime Ouellet. As a Habs fan we have a long list of first round disasters.

I believe in drafting the best player available no matter what position he plays. Some will be good picks some brutal, hindsight is 20/20.

Answer 3

I know this was for LITY... But two things:
- I think it's the fact that being a goaltender is a hard job and only the elite really make it in the NHL (there are limited spots for them too), so it probably doesn't just seem that goaltenders end up flops in the NHL (not just 1st round pick goalies either) because they ARE flops essentially.
- What you said about teenage goalies looking spectacular early on before they get into the NHL and have to adapt sounded just like Marc-Andre Fleury. Fleury actually admitted in an interview last week that he got by a lot in juniors with his athleticism. He neglected to learn to be positionally sound early on because he didn't have to be. And now he HAS to learn to be in position at the same time he learns to puck-handle better, at an NHL level.

ADD: HEY, what bitter person gave LITY a thumbs down?? >:[

Answer 4

Goalies in general take longer to get through the system, since they have the hardest job in all of hockey, so yeah taking them 1st overall is kind of wasting the pick.
There are not many Patrick Roys you get in round number 1 so stick with the defencemen and forwards.
I havent seen too many teams be successful with picking goalies first, i dont even recall one to tell you the truth, most of the great goalies for some reason get taken in the 2nd or 3rd round or even lower.....
great question, sure is different from the same ol all the time from some in here!

Answer 5

Let's extend this a bit. Why do so many good goalies come out of the QMJHL? The Habs always seem to be up to their necks in good goalies for as long as I can remember. Do they have a guy who is that good at spotting goalie talent?

Answer 6

Lolololol

Answer 7

i chose brodeur as my first choice pick.

he's not doing so well but i bet that he will preform better later in the season.

last season my first pick was miller from buffalo... he started off really well and i was in first place for the league for many weeks

after a while though, miller stopped preforming like he was at the beginning of the season.

also, this season i had high hopes for jonathan bernier, i picked him up right after the draft, but he didn't preform well and is now NA.

i think it's all the luck of the draw.