why is the foundation quarter horse line not popular anymore?

Question

we recently purchased a few brood mares and found that the line of breeding is no longer of value- the trends have changed. the breeding was very valuable in the 80's and 90's. the breeding is the Doc Bar line. the papers and lines are awesome and can be traced back to the foundation horses of the Poko Bueno, O'Leno and Doc Bar lines. people are spening lots of money on the newer breeding but not the old foundation lines. does anyone know why? any comments?

two of the mares can go back to the Impressive lines also. the babies last spring have beautiful heads, like the Impressive horses have.

along with Doc Bar and Impressive, all of them have Three Quarter Bars/ Three Bars breeding too.

Answer 1

Does it have something to do with the Impressive lines? Sorry not a QH expert. EDIT: Sorry that didn't come off right, I meant I am not familiar with lots of bloodlines, but with the HYPP concerns now, that might have affected values negatively.

One thing I'd heard was that QH people were breeding more "sport horse" type horses and that the stocky old breed was less popular (which stinks, give me a sturdy, stocky horse anyday).

I'd also heard there was a trend toward breeding beef cow halter horses, instead of good, sturdy stock.

Best of luck, and sorry I'm not more help.

EDIT: Kudos to the other answerer as well, I have many hobbies and appreciate a horse who can have many events too!

To Cowboy: I love you. Do you blog?

Answer 2

I will start by saying that I own a foundation bred, appendix QH mare, and that she is of the Poco Bueno line, with 4 separate crosses to Three Bars in her lineage. She is also HYPP N/N, so I have no worries there. We tried to breed her 3 different times this past year, but for some unknown reason, she seems to be unable to conceive. The stud she was bred to was a Thoroughbred performance horse which never raced- our goal was to get a foal from her which could be used for polo ( my sister is a polo player) at maturity. The mare was cultured before being bred, and tested negative, and she was also treated with regumate in the hopes that this would help her. But it didn't work, and we have no idea why. I love my mare- she's too slow and lazy for polo, but her calm, sweet, adaptable temper and personality make her an ideal dressage horse, and that is what I am training her to do. She has done very well so far, and I hope to start showing her in the spring. I also want to do some more investigation into why my mare can't concieve- and any ideas people have on this are welcome.

As for why people are going after the newer lines, I think the answer there is that horses are being used for different things nowadays, such as highly competitive sports like dressage and eventing. Horses which are suited for ranch work are not generally well suited for work at high speeds over longer distances, such as those found on the typical eventing course. Added to this is the shift in interest away from ranch work and towards sports which demand a taller, faster, leaner horse, such as racing. Today's horses have to be very versatile, and those of the older lines are viewed by some as not being so. It's just a sign of the times, I think.

Answer 3

One reason I don't buy the old blood lines you have to consider that these blood lines were established in the 1940's and after decades of breeding and thousands of divorced off spring it is impossible to say you are buying a horse that is even close to the original dam or sire,In a western horseman article in 2003 this point was made even more clearly the statistics were something like this for every foal that proves its self a winner hundreds more never develop beyond riding stock this could be due to poor training or just the realization that buying a horse that can be traced back 15 generations ago to a foundation stud or mare does not automatically mean you have a future champion,and the horse market is over saturated with "papered" horses thanks to over breeding in the late80's and on thru the 90's.

Answer 4

The foundation bloodlines are popular if you look in the right places. Just because some people are shunning them doesn't mean the rest of us have forgotten about them. My dad has raised Quarter Horses for forty years. He started out with a Two Eyed Jack bred stallion, and yes, we crossed him with Three Bars bred mares, but they produced excellent ranch horses, and that was what we wanted. Now, twenty some years later, Dad just purchased a Doc Bar stud, and most of his mares are also of that strain. He would definitely pay more for a Doc Bar or Poco Bueno mare than for some of these newer bloodlines. He lives in Idaho, and people there want good ranch horses.

There are a lot of newly-established stallions that people are flocking to. I don't know a lot about them, but they do seem bred for a particular event. For instance, every barrel racer wants a Firewater Flit or Hot Corona horse. The halter/western world are leaning towards Peptoboonsmal breeding. You can do some investigating on what lines are popular in each discipline, and if you have the money to invest in a stud fee, breed your foundation mares to one of those studs. You might have a chance to sell them for a lot of money, if your mares are well-bred and HYPP negative.

But I don't think you're going to make money in the horse industry right now, unless you own a top name stallion, are a top name trainer, or can win some championships with your horses. Don't let that discourage you from being in the horse business....just don't expect to sell your foals unless you have one of the above. Sadly, this isn't the time to breed horses. I have a Poco Bueno mare that my husband keeps urging me to breed with a really nice palomino stallion in the area...I just won't. Not until there's a market for nice little palomino Poco Bueno bred colts.

That's my advice and my opinion. If you can train those foals yourself, and sell them as good ranch horses, you can still make a pretty penny. But you've got to invest several years into them before they're worth it. The sale prices for registered quarter horse foals right now are between $25 and $250. Unless they have a big name on their pedigree. That's the bottom line.

So, enjoy your mares. And hang on....something might spark the market back up. You never know.

Answer 5

Michelem...Do you even know what HYPP is and what it can do? I am glad your horses don't show the trait but that doesn't mean they are not carriers. I truly hope you have not bred them and sold the colts. How very irrisponsible that would be.

Now, on to the question. I would take a foundation bred horse anytime over anything else. America is "trendy" and that is the answer. Plus, with AI, the value of a colt with a great bloodline is not as much because every Tom, Dick, and Harry has one. With your horses being Impressive, I would get them to the vet and see if they are H/H or N/N or H/N or N/H. PLEASE do this to save any foals you are planning on having. Impressive horses are pretty but is it worth passing on a gene that will kill them?? Give me a Doc Bar horse over anything!! They can do it all.

Answer 6

It is just a change in trends- everyone wants an appendix horse now. I don't understand how you can cross a registered QH horse, and a registered TB and get a registered QH horse. My aunt's TB stud was approved for breeding purebred QH horses. We used to call those appendix horses, but now they are fully registered.

A lot of riders are going more for the leggy TB type horses in the show ring- which means that no one wants a foundation anymore.

Personally, I think if it is a QH, it should look like a QH. which I consider to be the fountain line. We have one- a gorgeous muscled boy, who looks like your typical riding QH.

I see some of these new registered QH horses, and I see something that looks almost full TB. I do know of a couple foundation QHs, but the new type is definately a lot easier found than foundation.

Answer 7

Since the show horse world decided that having a "specialized" one event horse was the way to go. I have people I show with that have a Halter Horse, a Showmanship horse, a Western Horse, a Trail Horse, an English Horse, and a Speed Event horse. God forbid that a horse actually do more than one thing. I have a horse that can halter, do showmanship, reining, western pleasure, and roping. And has APHA points in all of the mentioned events. When the shows first started to be named Grand Champion, your horse had to be able to win a halter class, rope a cow, and do western pleasure and excell at all of the events. After a few years, Grand Champion meant the biggest halter horse on the smallest feet. Now days, no follows the "form follows function" rule. It is biggest horse for halter, the slowest peanut pusher for western pleasure, and the TB cross for English. And if someone would read the breed standards, none of the "modern" horses fit it. But since a lot of the judges are also trainers and more horses mean more money, then these "one event" wonder horses will continue to be popular. BUT on the flip side, if you will look at what wins most of the all around titles at the World showsand the Superhorse awards, it is the horses that can do more than one event and the foundation cattle bred horses who can rope, rein and cut are the ones taking home the top all around prizes.

Answer 8

I think your seeing that all over the board with not only your breedings but everything. The horse market is tanked.

However, is all your stock N/N? If not, thats a huge consideration when breeding impressive horses.

Plus, your breeding halter horse quality. The consumers are getting pickier about their horses and the dainty feet that come with halter horses, aren't a huge seller anymore. Plus the beefcakes that no normal saddle will fit, ppl just walk on by.

You have good stock, but preformance is where its at, and HollywoodDunit etc is right now where I'm seeing the trend here. Frenchmans guy who was the 'whose who' here, has gone out the window lately.

So unfortunatley, even tho you have good bloodlines, sometimes the market moves and you have to keep up.

My suggestion, use your mares, breed to a highquality jack and sell the mule babies. Ppl are always looking for well bred mules. No offence I promise. At the sales I'm at, a well trained, well bred mule, brings more than horses anymore.

Edited-- if you do decide to breed H/H or N/H mares to a jack, please contact a mule organization, they are running studies to see if that does pass onto hybrids.

Answer 9

nowadays, there are more people getting into the performance and race horse industry as well as equestrian competeing. foundation bred horses are still seen and wanted in the cow horse industry, however, i know several people as well as myself who have foundation bred mares and breed them to race bred studs. this gives me/us very versatile horses for the arena. I used to have a foundation bred mare that was Clabber, Poco Bueno, Dr. Kirk etc. and we bred her to a race bred stud, filly turned out to be a top barrel mare.
the breeding of a horse is only going to have an impact of the type of competion you are doing. And for the note, nothing is wrong with Impressive bred horses as long as you make sure they have or are tested negative for HYPP. My top barrel horse is a great grandson of Impressive on his dams side, and race on his daddys. and he is an amazing horse. Everyone always shy's away from Impressive bred horses because of the HYPP, and for good reason, for that is not a good thing to have, but now a days, a majority of impressive bred horses are going to be tested negative, sure there are a few that will be positive, but its not as common as it was years ago when Impressive was first tested positive.
In the arena world or competeing, lets say barrel racing, a good portion of the horses will be race bred with the "new" trends of bloodlines, but i garantee you'll find several horses that still go back to three bars, doc bar, poco bueno and other foundation horses. three bars could be considered foundation as well as race bred, for he plays a big part in both types of bloodlines.
unfortunately you have two types of people, you have people that do know how good the "old" breeding/bloodlines were and will/do try to continue that throughout there own horses as well as others, but then you have the people that are all about "whats new" or "whats hot". they follow the "trends" of the breeding world, if there is a new hot stud out there, they find it a must to have. they dont go on the old breeding/bloodlines whether it be foundation or race bred. they are all about the "trends" of todays horse world.
what we need are more people that appreciate the old bloodlines and what they did for todays horse world and to remember where our horses today originated from.

Answer 10

If your mares go back to Impressive, you run a substantial risk of carrying HYPP positive (even recessive positive) horses and this is a HUGE genetic default.

The financial responsibility of caring for an HYPP horse is imense and, frankly, not worth it just to get the 'typey' look that many QH followers enjoy.

You said yourself, that these mares have 'pretty heads,' right? But did you look at the rest of their conformation? Probably not. Most horses who are Impressive lined have babydoll faces (not my preference, but some people enjoy it) but have HORRIBLE confirmation around the rest of their body. You might want to look into that.

Newer breeding often eliminates HYPP carrying horses, one. It also breeds to a heavier more sport-horse not so much a 'cow' horse.

You're also now breeding for different gaits. In the 80's and early 90s, western pleasure judges were ribboning peanut rollers, 4-beta canters, barely-tracking-up trots, and apologetic walks.

Horses were bred for conformation to encourage those gaits. Now, with many QHs being entered into eventing, dressage, hunter shows, etc, those gaits are no longer desirable at all.
Therefore those lines that were bred specifically to encourage WP 'typey' gaits, are now discouraged because they won't even ribbon in the WP arena.

The jobs of horses continues to change. 40 years ago, people didn't event their heavy cold blooded horses. Now they do so cold bloodeds are being refined through careful breeding to be able to compete.

When jobs change, people's preferences change and eventually it will be come a 'trend.'

I would encourage you not to continue to breed your horses since you're already aware that there is no demand for their line. I'm sure they're sweet critters, but with killyards overflowing, its just a huge risk for every filly and colt.