Calling all the brains on the group....?

Question

I can't figure out this issue with my mule and am on my way back to the vet aaaaagain on wednesday for another chiro treatment, but I am requesting more evaluations. This will be his 2nd opinion. If nothing improves, we are on our way to Colorado State University.

They thought he had a pinched subscapular nerve from a one time poor fitting collar. The vet recommended accupunture, I didn't feel the accupuncturist here knew what she was doing and hauled him to a chiro/accup about 4 hrs away. He did a chiro treatment on him, mule went on to blow away a 4H show and took all grands and 1 reserve in his classes. Then farrier came out, he went lame again. Its actually more a 'gait disturbance'. He goes from his swooping trot to a pony trot, doesn't really want to move out etc.

So vet fixed him again and farrier came out last week, boom lame again. Its a front end issue. He is lame when he pivots. Unless you know his movements, thats when you really see it.

So, the first vet ruled out suspensory problem or injury. Didn't feel it was that. He is dry lotted in 2 large adjoining paddocks with plenty of exercise. He is only a show mule, I don't trailride him, he is only drive out on trails and ridden/driven at shows.

They said there was no arthritis in his neck. The chiro said he was out in the knee. So I really don't know anymore what to do. I want them to evaluate his trim, do xrays if they think he needs them and know what is wrong with this mule.

Has anyone else experienced lameness after trims not related to trimming too short?

Thanks guys

Thanks jhg, through word of mouth (today actually) a friend told me about a farrier, hes far away, about 4 hrs, (typical in wyoming tho lol), I have emailed him and want him to evaluate my mule, I guess CSU recommends him. These are my other farrier choices

Rick- obnoxious jerk who totally torked me off with his egotistical "Im god " attitude and then refused to work on the one that needed it the most when he got there because his back hurt. He comes highly regarded, but he was a jerk and my mules hated him. So I just can't use him.

Charlie- 1/2 dead, gotta love him, but his trims last 1 hr on each animal. These guys were patient for about 30 min with him and then had enough. Hes a sweetheart, but needs to retire.

Thats it for farriers, there was one that I called in the paper to see his credentialings, he said mules weren't his favorites to do. So i just told him nicely, thats all I got, then he begged me to let him do them lol. NOT.

arab person-sorry can't remember your whole id :)

no i haven't had them nerve him yet and maybe they will do that this time. They just did a whole lameness exam last time, flexion tests, gait tests, etc. I will see if they want to do that. I haven't dealt with chronic lameness before, so I am really at a loss for this. But thanks, I will bring that up to them too!

oh and he was shod after the first trim because the guy was worried he trimmed him too short and we had the 4H show coming up. But he isn't reguarly shod and doesn't have shoes now. Sorry forgot to put that in.

Answer 1

I once worked on a pony that was used for jumping. The pony missed a jump and took a hit to it's shoulder. It was probably two years of treatments before they realized that the pony had a nerve problem. And not the nerves in the feet. There is a very large branch of nerves that run right by the shoulder blade (the subscapular just like you mentioned) - like the thickness of your thumb, I didn't believe it til I saw it. The injury caused the nerves to move so that the shoulder blade was running against them and causing the pony to go lame. We went in and "cut" away a section of shoulder blade and that helped to make that horse sound again. It never jumped again, but it was happy out at pasture.

I'm not saying that is the issue, but because the vet thought the nerve was a problem before, and because the horse responded so well to a re-adjustment by the chiropractor I think it is a possibility. That may also explain why he goes lame everytime he is trimmed - it just chages how the shoulder sits, and might cause something to rub up against or pinch that nerve.

You might try trimming more frequently to limit the amount of change in the front feet between trims. Maybe try stretching out the legs imediately after trimming - you know, pulling the leg out forward extending the shoulder. Then pulling it back. Whatever you do, I would certainly try the University out, or at least call for a consult to see what they recomend.

I hope everything turns out well.

Answer 2

this is a bit technical to answer here..have you had him nerve blocked?
it does sound as if he is tender after a trim..you don't say if he is shod..you could maybe use a foot hardener..unless l can see him it is very difficult to evaluate lameness..maybe something will show up in the ex ray
do you think its the foot or the leg? as he only seems to have a problem after the farrier maybe its something he is doing..one of my stallions goes short if the farrier pulls his off hind to high..no idea why and he is 21..never been lame in his life! after half an hour he's OK...never could work out why but l make sure that leg is not pulled too high..a couple of his off spring also hate that off hind being pulled high as well!
later
sounds like he might have trimmed him too short to start which could have given him sore feet, some horses take a while to get used to shoes
l am surprised that you vet did not do a nerve block test that would have instantly told you if it was a nerve problem
let us know how you get on

Answer 3

Yes!!! Some horseshoers have the concept that one trim fits all. This of course as you know is not the case. I had a horseshoer (not a farrier who they go to school for years and learn so much more about the horse's anatomy and such than a "regular" horseshoer) trim one of my horses for 3-4 times and the same thing happened. I found that his one shape that he did on all horses did not work for my gelding.
His feet needed to be shaped slightly differant and he wasn't too short but his leg didn't evenly follow through at a trot or canter and would swing out and of course then threw his shoulder and ribs out of wack and hurts.
I changed to a farrier and awesome results!!!!
I then found out, after talking with my dad who was a farrier, that a farrier (who is good at what he does) can look at a horse walk and know exactly how to do each foot individually and that no two feet are hardly ever the same.

Also since this is happening after every trim I would say get a differant farrier.

Good luck and hope everything works out there for you!

Answer 4

I wonder if, in the process of shoeing, the angle that the leg is positioned in is causing a problem. The knee is flexed pretty tight, and if there is a knee problem, this will exacerbate it. This can also happen in the shoulder during shoeing with the front leg being abducted away from it's normal position, out to the side some and not actually under the horse...

Perhaps you can use some liniment, DMSO or bute prior to shoeing and see if this makes a difference (if it is a nerve situation, it won't). Or, work with your shoer on setting the leg down often, giving the mule lots of time to rest the knee and shoulder.

It sounds more like it is related to shoulder movement since the actual length of the stride in the trot is affected...not just one leg in the trot. And turn on the forehand is a great indicator of shoulder issues, since they, as you have seen, really show lameness when turned like this.

I would not nerve the horse unless it is a last resort to pinpoint the site of injury.

Answer 5

Since this is happening right after the farrier comes, and they say it's knee related....do you suppose there's anyway that there's something in the way the farrier torques his knee to have him in position to be trimmed that is aggravating a problem? I've got one gelding that was a major bear to work with. Fought like a tiger anytime the farrier attempted to work with him. We resorted to drugs and finally fired the farrier over other issues. Called in a new guy, talked with him some, and the first time he showed up I thought "OMG...I've hired a hilljack." But the horses love him. He's got the most unorthodox shoeing style I've ever seen, but most of the time to do their front ends he gets down on one knee, puts their leg across his other thigh, and works that way. No torque or twisting on the knee. Even my big bad apple is now a huge puppy dog. Best of luck with finding out and correcting his problems.

Answer 6

Sounds to me to be almost a foot problem. Is he being trimmed short enough to quick because the quick grows down into the hoof wall? Had a mare do this once. I actually would quick her if I rasped her just a little. It was hard to see and you had to look but could see the blood in the hoof wall where I rasped.

If so hot shoeing by a farrier who knows what he is doing MAY fix the problem but leave someone who doesn't know hot shoeing alone. The solution that worked for me was to pasture my mare barefoot on rocky ground until the hooves were short enough and then shoe her.

Shoot you know better than I do and if it was a hoof problem you would be able to tell. Sorry forgot who I was talking to for a moment!

Answer 7

Hi MR,

My best thoughts for you and your long ears.

I can't offer any theories, but my pony DID used to get a little lame after our old farrier trimmed him and he hadn't been trimmed too short.

I think it had something to do with the way the farrier torqued on him holding and picking up his legs (big man, little pony). NOT saying it's your farrier, but it's happened to me.

I hope you get a satisfactory answer soon!

Answer 8

i know it sounds silly and so simple but maybe your farrier is just too rough! this happened to my horse for over a year before we realised what it was that made her lame. we tried every test there was, rode on the same rollercoaster you seem to be enjoying ;). our farrier was simply too rough. he was making her so sore after she was shod that she could barely walk. and all of the tests and everything else we did would only aggrivate it after. keep on with your hunt for an answer and good luck!

Answer 9

you know, i was at my trainer's place today, and she said that her horse was laming up after the trims, so she got another farrier than the one she's had for a while. i don't know why that was happening, but kinda weird. i think it was the farrier's technique that was messing her up, but i don't know why it didn't affect her before. switch farriers for a few more trims, and see what happens.

Answer 10

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