do you think the universe (matter) had to be created by an infallible perfect god/thing?

Question

do you think the "thing" that created the universe (most ppl would say god) necessarily had to be perfect (omniscent, omnipotent, omni-benevolent, eternal) inorder to create it. why or why not.
OK, i asked this question and got a lot of religious answers about how god is perfect, but that is not what i am asking. I'm not asking about god, i'm asking about the way way begining when the first matter in this or any universe was created, before the big bang.
i mean do you think a lesser and fallible "thing" "force" whatever, could have created the matter, or what do you think created the matter

Answer 1

The 'very beginning' must be 'nothing' or 'a myth'.... in so far as our logic goes...... please see below as to why I say so.

Whatever is the very beginning must have had no beginning for itself.... this can only be 'nothing'...... can all this come out of nothing?..... well it is possible, just as in Maths zero can be broken up into several pluses and minuses which always sum up to zero.... and this analogy seems to fit our universe because we always find opposites and perhaps our perception would be nullified if there were no opposites.... good defines bad, see-through gas defines solid etc. etc........ just as +1 and -1 are similar values but opposites, in the same way, all our perceptive knowledge of this universe is based on similarities as well as differences (difference is actually partially opposite).

If not as above, the only other possibility seems to be that there has been no creation at all.. it is just going on for ever and ever without any beginning or end... a continuum... and it is the constant phenomenon of change that gives us the illusory concept of any beginning or end, since every change is a beginning of something as well as an end to something else.

Hope this makes sense.... to me this looks as the only logical way to look at it.

Thanks for the 'deepest' question we can ever ponder over and perhaps never find 'the' answer!

Answer 2

Yes, a lesser force than God could have created the universe.

From what I understand, the universe is probably finite. So why would its creator have to be infinite?

Many human creations outlast their creators, so why should we suppose that the creator of the universe must be eternal?

The universe apparently expands and develops on its own, so why would its creator have to know everything about it, any more than the inventor of new fireworks would have to know where every spark will fly?

Many natural phenomena kill people and make them suffer, from Ebola to tsunamis. If Earth collided with a sufficiently large asteroid, human life could end. So why should we suppose that the Creator is benevolent?

The bodies of living things, including human beings, often contain structures and processes that don't make sense from an engineering standpoint. An engineer would have made our knees ball-and-socket joints; he would have made our eyes free of blind spots and would not have buried the retina under layers of other cells. An engineer could have done better than the appendix and old age. So why should we suppose that the creator is infallible?

Take a look at David Hume's "Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion" for much more elegant and complete statements of points like these.

By the way, it isn't even necessary to suppose that the universe was created at all.

The Big Bang is a misleading term: the universe didn't explode into pre-existing space: space itself simply expanded from an undifferentiated point into what we see today.

The expansion references not expansion into an external space: there is no such space as far as anyone knows. Rather, expansion refers to increasing distances between the things in our universe.

Time began with the Big Bang: it therefore makes no sense to speak of events that occurred before it, unless we are thinking that the Big Bang happened because some previous universe collapsed down to a point. But how could we verify the existence of such a previous universe after all of its particulars were crushed down to a singularity?

I'm not a scientist, but have read books by cosmologists, books that were written for lay people like myself. When I read these books, I realize that there are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in anyone's religion.

Jim G.

Answer 3

You're asking a lot, my dear. Humans all down thru the ages have pondered such, and few have come up with genuinely meaningful answers. And I probably want do any better. But it is an endlessly fascinating topic to wrestle with. So here goes.

I'm approaching the question from a yoga philosophical point of view. I've studied comparative religions etc., for a long time; and the most satisfying intellectual resolution to the question for me is as follows.

Samkhya yoga postulates that the(our)universe has no beginning and no end. That it is evolved, maintained and then involuted by a sound God I.D. as "Isvara" Saguna Brahman. He, this, is the lower rung of a 3 tired ultimate reality. Remember, I said sound God.

Above him is another order of reality referred to as Nirguna Brahman. This means God without sound.

Recall that the Buddha was always referencing the "roar of silence".

The ultimate, ultimate, ultimate reality - the "uncaused cause" is referred to as Nirguna Purusa Brahman - "One Without A Second".

I suspect you will probably find my response, not terribly enlightening, too esoteric. But this is all I can offer. Hope it will hold some meaning for you. E-mail me if you wish.

An uncertain,

Wotan

Answer 4

I personaly believe that it was just a total void of empty space that somehow someway got filled with some matter of an unknown amount or type and thus it started to get acted upon by the forces we live with today like gravity/EM fields/ The pulling/pushing force a almost total vaccume could create. And so many years later we have the universe we come to know. Altho I dont know if thats really what happend its what I believe. If there is a god imo all helped to create it and it would imo more be like a collective mindstate of the universe then an actual god.

Answer 5

Perfect or not, He had to be a heck of a mathematician.

Check out a book called The Priviledged Planet to understand how the fine tuning of the laws of the Universe, set during the first milliseconds of the big bang, had to be so perfectly finetuned, that even the slightest variation would have resulted in a Universe where life could never exist.

That fine tuning, with no margin for error, is statistically impossible to have happened by accident, and if an intelligent force was behind it, it would have to be one of an incredibly high standard.

I know that I haven't answered your question as asked, but I hope I've answered something.

Answer 6

Bertrand Russel came up with the best analysis of the creationism argument. That argument is basically "every event has a cause, therefore something must be the cause of everything." His response while funny is poignant and shows the fallacy in this line of reasoning. He essentially said that argument would correspond with this statement "everyone has a mother, therefore someone is the mother of everyone." Generally speaking I think it is a good question yet I still have a problem with how the question is worded. It presupposes that the universe must have had a begging, do we have any reason that it needed to be created. Its existence is unlike any other we know of, and yet we still try to apply the same logic of existence requires creation, but does it necessarily? I do not think so. I believe that the universe was not created by any God or force, it simply is.

Answer 7

The Universe is more than matter, is also space and non matter stuff that our little minds cannot grasp.
I understand the question, it is a matter of perspective.
Is also a question of understanding based on perspectives that we can understand.
Truth is that no human can actually understand that concept to the full potential.
Our little minds have to think Something created X,Y and Z, yet the universe is power unto itself that is beyond human capabilities of understanding. The energy or force that bumped into another energy or non energy could have made a creation or a non creation that we comprehend as matter.
Is all perception based on our primitive concepts.

Answer 8

The words 'lesser' and 'falliable' may or may not be applicable to whatever that created the matter. It may be saying something like, ' how wet is the color yellow?' It just doesn't make sense.

For argument sake, let's assume that qualities you speak of are attributable to whatever that created the universe. If so, then I do say yes. Many people can write essays, but not many people can write well enough to win a Pulitzer prize. Nevertheless, they can write essays. And even the people who won Pulitzer prize before do produce mediocre works now and then.

Answer 9

Well that is interesting from the point of view of what does it mean to be infallible. From our own perspective, anything so great and powerful as to create the entire universe would be 'perfect'. As we would assume that we are from that being, there is no way that we could surpass that being in terms of perfection, therefore, for all intents and purposes, no matter how much we didn't understand what was going on, the thing that created us would have to be perfect, right? I think when you are discussing a being as great as a God, then you have to know that our standards of what are good and bad don't totally apply. I mean look even for mankind, we say killing is bad, we know this instinctively. But killing someone who we consider 'bad'.. is good. Think how much more so the rules of good and bad, perfect and imperfect could be stretched with a being of inifinite power? So to get to you question directly, did the universe have to be created by an infallible being, yes. But that doesn't mean that the things that are created are imperfect, even when they seem so to us.

Answer 10

The laws of physics as we understand them indicate that nothing comes of nothing but nothing.

Therefore, a pre-existing Something Caused matter, the universe (whether the universe is cyclic or "heat death").

What is interesting is the degree to which our universe is one of literally billions of billions which could occur. Only one in many billions would permit our type of life. Therefore, either we've won a lottery, or Some Intelligence knew what She was doing.

Http://www.divinecosmos.com and http://www.tiller.org are two sites which speak to this, http://www.coasttocoastam.com is a radio site with occasional guests speaking to this, such as Dr. Michio Kaku.

"Hope for the Future: Spiritual Galvanoplasty," Omraam Mikhael Aivanhov, "Climb the Highest Mountain," Mark Prophet, and "Galaxy Gate," Colton and Murro, also speak to this.

cordially,

j.

cordially,

j.