Do Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine sound like liberterians or just plain American liberals?

Question

PRIVATE CHARITIES ALONE ARE NOT SUFFICIENT TO ADDRESS POVERTY
"There are, in every country, some magnificent charities established by individuals. It is, however, but little that any individual can do, when the whole extent of the misery to be relieved is considered. He may satisfy his conscience, but not his heart. He may give all that he has, and that all will relieve but little. It is only by organizing civilization upon such principles as to act like a system of pulleys, that the whole weight of misery can be removed... The plan here proposed will reach the whole. It will immediately relieve and take out of view three classes of wretchedness-the blind, the lame, and the aged poor; and it will furnish the rising generation with means to prevent their becoming poor; and it will do this without deranging or interfering with any national measures."
- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice

SUPPORT FOR A PENSION SYSTEM FOR THE ELDERLY
"Having thus in a few words, opened the merits of the case, I shall now proceed to the plan I have to propose, which is... To create a national fund, out of which there shall be paid to every person, when arrived at the age of twenty-one years, the sum of fifteen pounds sterling, as a compensation in part, for the loss of his or her natural inheritance, by the introduction of the system of landed property: And also, the sum of ten pounds per annum, during life, to every person now living, of the age of fifty years, and to all others as they shall arrive at that age."
- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice

PUBLIC SCHOOLS FOR THE MASSES
"Having thus ascertained the greatest number that can be supposed to need support on account of young families, I proceed to the mode of relief or distribution, which is... To pay as a remission of taxes to every poor family, out of the surplus taxes, and in room of poor-rates, four pounds a year for every child under fourteen years of age; enjoining the parents of such children to send them to school, to learn reading, writing, and common arithmetic; the ministers of every parish, of every denomination to certify jointly to an office, for that purpose, that this duty is performed."

"By adopting this method, not only the poverty of the parents will be relieved, but ignorance will be banished from the rising generation, and the number of poor will hereafter become less, because their abilities, by the aid of education, will be greater. Many a youth, with good natural genius, who is apprenticed to a mechanical trade, such as a carpenter, joiner, millwright, shipwright, blacksmith, etc., is prevented getting forward the whole of his life from the want of a little common education when a boy."
- Thomas Paine, Rights of Man

SOCIAL SPENDING LEADS TO A REDUCTION IN POVERTY, LESS CRIME, AND MORE STABILITY
"By the operation of this plan, the poor laws, those instruments of civil torture, will be superseded, and the wasteful expense of litigation prevented. The hearts of the humane will not be shocked by ragged and hungry children, and persons of seventy and eighty years of age, begging for bread. The dying poor will not be dragged from place to place to breathe their last, as a reprisal of parish upon parish. Widows will have a maintenance for their children, and not be carted away, on the death of their husbands, like culprits and criminals; and children will no longer be considered as increasing the distresses of their parents. The haunts of the wretched will be known, because it will be to their advantage; and the number of petty crimes, the offspring of distress and poverty, will be lessened. The poor, as well as the rich, will then be interested in the support of government, and the cause and apprehensi

of riots and tumults will cease. "
- Thomas Paine, Rights of Man

JEFFERSON FOR PROGRESSIVE TAXATION
"The property of this country is absolutely concentred in a very few hands, having revenues of from half a million of guineas a year downwards... I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable. But the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind. Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there is in any country, uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right. The earth is given as a common stock for man to labor and live on."

--Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, October 28,1785. ME 19:17, Papers 8:682
http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=967

Common sense,

Not according to this quotes.

Since when do "classical liberals" (aka liberterians) believe in progressive taxation, social spending to reduce poverty, public education, and a gov't pension system for the elderly?

Answer 1

Libertarians don't believe in progressive taxation -- or massive govt-run mandatory welfare programs.

Most liberals don't either -- though liberals are more than happy to allow for opt-in voluntary programs -- while libertarians don't ever want the govt that much involved, whether voluntary or not.

But remember -- it's not a single spectrum -- big govt versus small govt is one spectrum -- federalist vs. libertarian.

That's entirely different than the liberal vs. conservative spectrum -- personal freedoms vs. govt regulation of personal choice.

Answer 2

Paine was more of a prog-liberal than Jefferson, especially later in his life. However, the Jefferson quote is deceptive here. It was written two years before the Constitution was written, and back then Madison took care to make sure that all tatxation was excise in and apportioned in nature, and an "income" tax was never considered by the Founders.

Agrarian Justice was written to the people of France, though, not America.

Answer 3

Thomas Paine figured it out in the 1700s what Republicans still don't know...

even if you look around the world today at nations that don't do these simple things that Paine discussed, you can still see the inherent truths in these statements...

Answer 4

They held ideals of Classical Liberalism. A far cry from the America-hating, speech-suppressing, socialist neo-libs of today.

Answer 5

Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, what is liberal about that?

He was more like a Conservative.