What do you all think of this Camile Paglia quote?

Question

"In this mechanized technological world of steel and glass, the fires of sex have to be stoked. This is why pornography must continue to play a central role in our cultural life. Pornography is a pagan arena of beauty, vitality, and brutality, of the archaic vigor of nature...Pornography lets the body live in pagan glory, the lush, disorderly fullness of the flesh. When it defines man as the enemy, feminism is alienating women from their own bodies."

Camile Paglia, Tramps and Vamps, 111.

Hey, Tera and Wendy.

I'm not sure what kind of porn that Paglia was referring to in the quote. But I think you're making overreaching statements. There's a lot of different kinds of porn.

And for Tera, the "men as enemy" part needs context--the article was a response to Andrea Dworkin and Catherine Mackinnon. It might be a question of judgment, but I don't think it's totally out of line to say that those two DID define men as the enemy.

I think her overall point is that it is pornography's role to subvert the puritanical morals of our society. I would agree with her--the shame of sexuality that underlies our society, especially as it relates to women, is far more damaging to their self esteem and body image than is pornography.

Twilight--

"Sexuality for its own sake is also raised to a high priority in our time."

I couldn't disagree more. Sexuality for it's own sake does not exist in our time. Sexuality that is at proper service to a cause, whether it be marriage, reproduction, rebellion, or a political cause like homosexuality or feminism is celebrated.

People who claim that they like the raw hedonistic joy of sex are considered deviants.

Twilight--

"Both of these domains are phenomenologically and cognitively primitive, as opposed to domains of human activity involving self-reflection, abstraction, or standing back from the causal determinism of immediate sensuous experience. These domains are relatively disempowering with respect to the human will."

I disagree here, too. I think that the curse of our society is endless pondering about the meaning of their actions and not enough spontaneity.

I can't follow your post after that--it's too full of jargon and I can't tell what you're getting at. I don't mean that as an insult, just as a commentary on intellectual conversation that has been destroyed by academic jargon.

Sorry, Twilight. All of that was meant for g-Zilla. I misread the names.

Rebel F--

Interesting point of view. I wonder if people's "life can be their pornography" without a model to follow?

Answer 1

Paglia is a creature of first amendment rights who came busting onto the baccinalean scene as a champion of the pornographic industry decades ago at the time when the issue was splitting the feminist movement in a big way.

She has always contended that women have a right to their erotic freedom, and that to be paid big money to be idolized in mens fantasy on print and in film is a womans right and in no way demeans her.

I think she is both right and wrong. Some pornography is highly exploitative, that which is produced under duress being an obvious first example. Easy to find others. On the other hand, is a young factory worker who has no expectation of making more than minimum wage being exploited to sit a $5,000 soft core photo set that she was invited to after responding to an ad for "glamour models" - I think not.

Overall though, she does seem to be making one heck of a deal over what 99% of the time is nothing more than a bit of media produced for men to masturbate over. I suspect she hasn't watched all that much of it, but if she has would she be kind enough to tell me where I can buy some that "lets the body live in pagan glory, the lush, disorderly fullness of the flesh."

The stuff about modern society is bunk. People have been making porn pictures since the first caveman learned to use a bit of charcoal on a rock.

In summary she is taking a romanticized view of porn for the sake of defending first amendment rights - is what I think.

Answer 2

I think she's been smoking crack.

There are many things I see as wrong about that statement- so many I'm not even sure where to start. Sex is more "alive and well" today than it ever was before- the "technological world" has not squelched sexuality- has not "put out the fire"...if anything it (thanks to various forms of media) has fanned the flames- and I'm not so sure it's been in a "responsible way", either. (She implies that technology and machinery have killed sexual desire in people, therefore pornography must "reignite" the fire.) When's the last time a bulldozer invaded your bedroom and you couldn't climax because of it? LOL! And she says that pornography "continues to play a central role in cultural life"- (who's culture is she referring to here, hers or ours?) Pornography does not "play a central role in our cultural life"..... that generalized statement does not apply very well to the many people who don't even watch porn at all, or for those who do it does not mean it's a "central part of their cultural life." I don't agree that it's an "arena of beauty" either, unless you call the exploitation of women and abundant plastic surgery "beautiful." And "brutality", in the same sentence as "beauty" as if they "ought" to go hand in hand? WTF? Gee that's a healthy perspective... And what the heck does "disorderly fullness of the flesh" mean, anyway? (Like I said, she must be high.) The last little tidbit added into her statement about feminism doesn't even make contextual sense. Feminism does NOT define "men as the enemy"...never has. And women are "alienated from their own bodies"? If they are, it has nothing to do with feminism, but has everything to do with society's repression of female sexuality coupled with unrealistic standards and expectations of female "beauty", which, ironically, pornography has helped to produce. (Many more porn stars have had boob jobs than not...I'd say probably 9 out of 10 women in those movies have had plastic surgery. Same goes for models, actresses, music artists, etc...) It's no wonder the average woman is self-conscious. Feminism is not to blame for this.

EDIT: Is it just me or does "disorderly fullness of the flesh" need a little bit more translation?

EDIT: Thanks, Wendy, but actually I think you stated it best...lol!

EDIT: I'm sorry Steven, I just don't agree...from my own female perspective on this, I think pornography is part of the problem, not part of a solution.

Answer 3

She's a loose cannon.
___As for this quotation, she draws a false dichotomy between mechanism/technology and pornography. Technology, and the material consumer goods, conveniences, and services it supports, is raised to a higher priority in our time than in any other historical era (in the West, at least). Physical security and health, and economic prosperity are unquestioned as the fundamental goals in life, though they were not always the most imprortant.
___The material domain is the object of sensory experience, and the manipulation of it is the most primitive level of human freedom. Even animals manipulate material objects.
___Sexuality devoid of attachments and affections of the quasi-spiritual sort is among the most primitive sensory and material gratifications. Sexuality for its own sake is also raised to a high priority in our time. Components of affection and spiritual alliance are subordinated to enhancements of sexuality that make it better or worse, instead of the other way around.
___Both of these domains are phenomenologically and cognitively primitive, as opposed to domains of human activity involving self-reflection, abstraction, or standing back from the causal determinism of immediate sensuous experience. These domains are relatively disempowering with respect to the human will. Among other things, they are domains of deterministic, conditioned, unconscious learning. A society that focuses on the physicalistic and sensuous domains lop off the head of human consciousness. Even technology, which manifests some active control at a lower level, is helpless when it comes to exercising good judgment as to its use. In order to exercise profound and conscious freedom, one must stand back from the causalities of sensation, biology, and materiality over which we have no cognitive control, and abstract one's standpoint and reflect upon one's circumstances and construct alternative behaviors to choose from. Living in sensation and physicalism allows behavior to be controlled by causations "external" to ego-experience.
___At best, human freedom is a marginal phenomenon, but it is one that can be self-amplifying and self-enhancing. "Unfortunately," the conscious exercise of freedom makes the moral aspects of free human behavior indisputable. When we have the freedom to do something or no, it's pretty hard to tell ourselves that we aren't responsible for its consequences, and living in primitivism can be an "effective" way to avoid moral responsibilities.
___Primitivism hinders human freedom of any profound sort, and Paglia's themes here-- the means of material manipulation (technology), sexuality, and paganism-- are primitive themes. It may be an exaggeration to say that Paglia might as well be advocating the abandonment of language and civilization and a return to a feral existence, but the range of her "options" suggests as much.

Answer 4

Although I agree that the state will have to keep out of individual affairs, the concern with this declaration is that the whole thing she mentions is evil and has brought on exceptional damage to society. So do not be fooled via the primary part of the declaration. Except for sodomy and suicide, I suppose laws can also be enacted to look after folks.

Answer 5

I like Paglia. Yay for sex, and all that. I think that we need women who are positive about sexuality, and encourage women to explore, for themselves, what it means to be a woman with regards to intimacy.

Personally, I think we could do more to *elevate* sex a bit, to make it more valuable than the casual "fast food" sex that many people have with strangers. But I think it's good for women to talk about it and remark on what sexuality and intamacy mean to them as women.

Answer 6

She is....well, I think Tera said it best.
Anyway, that pornography should be seen as a "genuine" expression of human sexuality and the female body is patently absurd. It is an objectified, bastardized, two dimensional version of sex; devoid of all real passion. That she should elevate the staged, airbrushed, lifeless and loveless pantomime of pornography to the "real deal," or even place it far above it, just shows that she has THOROUGHLY bought into her own subjugation, in a society that still clings to the notion that women who enjoy sex are "bad" or unnatural, while the porn industry perpetuates the notion that sex is something that is "done" to women (the object), rather than something she fully participates in (the subject).

What will "stoke the fires" will be women reclaiming their sexuality as their own, as many "pagan" women did. Recognizing in it the power to fully express your own passion, love, and sense of self.

Edit-My point is simply that it is not the "real deal"...she's making it sound like pornography is some "reclaiming" of true sexuality. It is not, it's the opposite. It's a bastardized, poorly directed version of sex, and human sexuality. It not only objectifies people, it objectifies sex itself. It strips sex of all it's "human" qualities, reducing it to a cliche. My point is that REAL sex is everything that she says porn is, but our society's mores have forced women into a false sense of frigidity, while turning sex in a passionless, masturbatory fantasy, instead of a powerful connection of mind, body, and soul. That's my view, anyway.

Answer 7

Pornography is not all like that; in fact, very little of it is. Most of it when Paglia was popular was degrading and humiliating to women, and served only as an outlet for the desires of men.

Answer 8

Makes me think of my english teacher. She talked about pagans a lot. If I´m to go on anything that my teacher said, then yes. Pornography is very pagan.

Answer 9

I'm understanding steel and glass to be metaphors to emotional frigid women. That women who are not of that nature should rely on their inborn natural instincts to seek out the lust of the flesh as naturally as the flowers grow in spring; nor should they find and or be shamed for doing so..

Answer 10

It seems to Me, being told You now have Her permission to do whatever You think is natural tends to take all the fun out of being a pervert. Must dash....busy alphabetizing My collection of Ron Jeremy movies.