1965 Honda 65, 4 speed, 2nd gear is rough?

Question

So shifting from 1st to 2nd cause a delay and some clunking.
3rd to 2nd downshifts cause a clunk but not near as bad.
The gears are new, the shift forks are new.
The bike hasn't run in 40 years but, their are new parts in the transmission, could the lutch pack be making this hesitiation? It only does it in gear #2, could the shift drum be worn out?

Any ideas?????
I would like to get this out on the street again since it looks fresh off the assembly line.

I have a couple bicycles and a unicycle, I'm just trying to keep a peice of history on the road since technically motorcycle magazines claim this is the bike that brought motorcycles to the masses in the USA as well as the rest of the world. And my Historic vehicle plates are already on the bike. yay!

wow, 3 great responses, I'll start with the easiest and work my way up to tear down, Thanks to you all!

I'm giving the best answer to Ganabe12, and then tied for best answer is mwhelan53 and then tied for best answer after that is bikinkawboy, and the other answere didn't quite read that the stuff in the trans was new except for the drum, and the girl with the bike answer? You should be Euthinized, and for all yes the bike is in meticioulous condition been sitting in my dad's garage, it has some rust in the gas tank, and inside the muffler, but the chrome is great and I polished up the aluminum so it does look very fresh. THANKS!!!!!

Answer 1

Unicycle ,,way cool!
Those things amaze & mystify me.
I can't even Hold one up with my hands standing next to it,,lol
Place I grew up had a nearby town which was very small &rural.
So small that elementary grades, jr. hi,and hi school were all combined,,,and they Still didn't have enough kids of any age group to have any kind of Sports Team.

Except Unicycle,,,no kiddin'.
P.E. /Gym Class was "the Unicycle team",,,and EVERY Kid of Every description that went to that school learned how to ride a uni-.
They had a exhibition team,,and stunt riders,etc,etc
Most all the kids could ride better than most people can walk/run/stand.

Then we've got some guys 'round my current home town who ride the 5',6',7' tall ones,,,,,,which is just absolutely incomprehensible to me.
More Amazing than Magic

..................................
About your 65,,,,

Those engines were FILLED with slack,,,from engine to rear wheel.

Odds of a problem with shift drum are next to ZERO.

What You're feeling is the Old Double-Dog 2nd Drive Gear on Mainshaft,,(as in,,"Double Dog Dare Ya to try to Speed Shift it!")
Seriously,,They Really did only have 2 dogs.
and the Old BOLT-IN shift fork drive pins.

All eventually superceded,,,to a 4Dog Gear and actual clip retained Roller Pins.

If bike has been gone into,,,
there's a Slim Possibility of "That Left Over Washer" laying on the bench.
Not an unusual Ommission.
Bike WILL Shift without it,,but is intermittently REALLY crappy feeling,,,and in certain conditions it sure can make 'em grind into gear-----more of a "clatter" than a grind,actually.

Look over by Countershaft Sprocket,,,Directly above it.
NOT the Neutral Light Switch.
But the Rubber Plug .
There's supposed to be a Bolt with a "Hardened Washer" in that cavity.

What that is ,,is the Shift Drum Retainer/LOCATOR.
Without it,,,shift drum stays Basically in place---but it exhibits a BUNCH of end-float especially when shifting.
The effect is quite similar to "bent shift fork",,,causing only partial engagement of the gear dogs.

Yours most probably has all that in good order.
But,,,it's Possibility,,,and easy to check.
And if it Is missing..it DOES cause odd shifting.

Very Easy to fix,,,just screw in a plain 6mm Bolt,,,and really "Best " to use a Hard Washer.
Any Honda dealer has those washers,,,they retained ALL the ignition advancers thru 60's 70's 80's.
Most Hardware stores have a 6mm or 1/4" equivalent.


Another thing which gets sloppy and causes tuff shifting----
But not very often the problem on Majority of Hondas,,,
is the "Shift Drum Stopper Lever"
It's a little arm with a small roller on the end of it.
That it Actually the Index Stop which locates the Drum into proper position per-gear-selected.
It ALSO is what actually Completes the Shift intitiated by rider's foot......long story we'll skip here.

But it Does assist Shift completion,,as well as "Latching it into the Selected Gear".

ROLLER Wear on those things is OFTEN a culprit on Most Jap Bikes of that era.
Even back when the bikes were New,,,6 months,,a year old,etc.

They are Allways Spring Loaded,,,and the SPRING was rarely ever a problem.
But we replaced them arbitrarily when installing new stopper lever,,"just because".

Consider that in 1965,,,I had Never seen a 40~45 year old Spring.
Nor in '75,,or '85.
As time marched on,,of course I saw increasingly aged ones.
And they All SEEMED to still be holding up OK.
BUT,,I also was no longer seeing 50~100 of them Weekly,,,a 1,000++ a year.

A Coil Spring in service eventually fails from Operation Cycles.
They'll also fail from SITTING static under load----they take a "set" and lose preloaded tension.

I Seriously DOUBT that Stopper Lever Spring is bad,,or even un-useably weakened.
But it IS a distinct possible after having sat static under load for so long.

Their strength is "marginal" even when brand new.

A Little wear on the Lever coupled with a Little weakness in the Spring can Absolutely cause Shift Difficulties.

If Your trans Does shift thru the gears,,,and STAYS in gear once it's finally engaged,,,
Odds are only less than maybe 5% there's any problem with the Transmission /shift drum/forks .

But if it's shifting crappy,,,about a 75%+% chance it needs the detent assy replaced--theStopper Lever and it's spring.

...............................
Clutches on those things are way sloppy.
Which is sorta a Good Thing.
Very Rarely does misadjustment account for shift quality probs.
But,,as with ANY clutch,,,adjustment CAN affect shifting.

They have a compound lever clutch release system.
Simple to figure out when looking at it,,,and simple to adjust.
It allows a relatively broad range of adjustment while still providing plenty of travel @the clutch for a clean ,,no-drag break.

--Pull the Round Plate off R/Hand engine cover
_Disconnect Cable from clutch arm on engine(It's just easier to get a good feel,,,,NOT necessary)
-Use the central adjuster screw in there,to allow Cable Arm on engine to go DOWN as far as possible.
-Which usually means screwing AdjusterScrew IN.
If it bottoms out upon the Cluch,,back it off 1 full turn or so.And make certain it doesnt turn back In when tightening it's lock nut.

--the Inline/Mid-Cable adjuster will need to be screwed In to re-install the cable.
Make and needed "fine adjustments" with the CABLE.

All that can be Tricky,,it's a balance of the various adjustments.
Thing to strive for is this:
1)Keep CableLever on engine adjusted DOWN far as possible
2)maintain Some freeplay between Adjuster Screw and Actual Clutch Assy

that yields the largest amount of throw-out mechanism travel available to break open clutch cleanly&Fully when Clutch hand Lever is pulled.

Note:as with All Bikes,,,,the Freeplay in the Hand lever is NOT primarily a matter of Personal Choice.
Only after the Mechanism's Functional Demand's have been satisfied can the rider make minor adjustments to suit their personal prefferences.
Which means a pretty "tight" hand lever with only a Little slack.

........................
Oil has an influence on several aspects of trans/clutch feel and function.
If it's "Too Cold" for 20w-50,,,,,too bad.
Straight 30w or 40w (if ya live in 95~100* Climate)is what I'd use.
Valvoline or Pennzoil

...............................................
As fonky as your transmission seems,,,It MIGHT have issues,,,but I doubt it's anything serious or major.
They're sorta like that.

Gotta realize,,,that lil box SEEMED Slick & Smooth as Butta in '65.
Compared to Harleys,and Triumphs,and Brit's AMC & Burmans.
THOSE are what the Experienced Riders refferenced the new wave of Jap Bikes to.

The "New Riders" back then which had no other actual experience,,REPEATED what they heard.
But they had no Real Grounds for Comparrison.

So when you HEAR,,,
"Naaaaaw,,,those old Hondas shifted GREAT!! I had one,,so I KNOW".
In Their PERCEPTION,,yeah they Did work good.
Thats ALL they KNEW.

But even by early 70's standards,,,the first 60's boxes were NOT as slick as they are Remembered to be.

They Truly DID work Great,,,COMPARATIVELY,,in their day.

But Flipping the ol',,,,"If we can send a Man to The Moon...."
Your Transmission was PRODUCED,,let alone Designed,,
a Half Decade before anybody ever got to the Moon.

So,,,MAYBE it was someone who thought,,,"If Honda can make a Transmission THIS MUCH BETTER than Triumphs and Harleys....then we oughta be able to Send a man to the Moon" :)

Seriously,,,,They were Great lil' Bikes,,had Very Good transmissions,,,
but by Todays Standards,,,and even 70's and later standards...
They Shift Clunky and quirky sometimes.
But they ARE definitely at least POSITIVE shifting when in working order.

If Much is wrong at all,,,they get Really Bad ,Quick.
And just plain wont shift thru the gears,,or stay in selected gear.

Good Luck with it,,,,what a really cool bike to have.
Even if You're Half Wrong about the condition,,,it would still be an exceptional example among the FEW which have survived.

Answer 2

A clunk between 1st and 2nd is not always abnormal since the slight delay caused by going through neutral gives the transmission shafts a chance to speed up or slow down. By delay do you mean enough time for the engine to rev up before the tranny engages or just a mere fraction of a second? It does sometimes take an instant for the dogs between 1st and 2nd to engage, not a long time but a bit more than the other gears. Does the transmission act this way only when shifting at low rpms, only at high rpms or both? How about when not using the clutch?

If the problems are only at low rpms, that's probably normal. My Kawasaki 1300 tends to clunk when shifting at low rpms but shifts smooth as silk at higher rpms. If it shifts smoothly without using the clutch, I'd make sure the clutch is adjusted so that it fully disengages. Also make sure you're not using an oil that's too heavy causing the transmission shafts and clutch to drag. If it still acts funny whether using the clutch or not, then I'd suspect a rough spot or worn spot on the shifting drum or the fingers that rotate the drum. Also make sure the clutch plates aren't warped causing the clutch to drag.

Answer 3

First - read Gonabe 12's reply - you can take everything he wrote as gospel! It's real nice to read a reply from someone who really knows what he is talking about, not just another goose making it up as he goes along.

I take my hat off too you Gonabe12.

I would add to his advice the following recommendation about your shift technique.

As you are about to shift, up or down, lightly load the shift lever with your foot, by this I mean gently push up or down until you feel some resistance. Maintain that pressure as you pull the clutch, this does not cure a klunky gearbox but should make the shift a lot smoother, quicker and quieter.

This works for both up and down shifts alike. Now for down shifts follow the same procedure but at the same time as you pull the clutch, blip the throttle. This will go a long way to matching the engine speed to the lower gear being selected.

It only takes a little practice to get all of this in sequence.

Give it a try before pulling the bike apart the result may surprise you.

I should add that you do not need to pull the clutch all the way in, remember all the gears in you trans are engaged all of the time. When you shift all that happens is that the the gear clusters are moved along the shafts whereby the gear dogs release between the previous gear and the dogs on the other side of the cluster engage with the next gear.

The technique I described to you allows this to happen in the most efficient way.

If you pull and hold the clutch before putting any load on the shift lever the different gear clusters get spinning out of sync and you end up trying to force the dogs into the corresponding holes in the next cluster. This is the delay and clunk you experience, as the gear dogs attempt find thier way home.

Its a bit like putting your key in the ignition. If you put the end of the key in the lock, line it up and push it'll slide right in. If you try to stab the key in the ignition from 2 inches out it just isnt going to be pretty.

Answer 4

1965 honda 65 4 speed 2nd gear rough

Answer 5

My guess is a broken (or jammed) shift drum is the problem.

Answer 6

use a bicycle