Trying again: do women inadvertantly spread misogyny?

Question

When they tell men they don't even know that the women in their lives (who they also don't know) are probably lying to them?

The question seems to have been misinterpreted and prompted a dispute about telling "white lies", but I am not disputing whether a "white lie" is ever justified or understandable or whether men and women both commit them.

What I am talking about is the tactic of telling men "Oh, women lie to you all the time" or "I am sure you've had many women 'fake it' with you", which seems ostensibly to humble (shame?) men, but in fact is sending the message, "Women are liars and men are too dumb to tell the difference", which - if believed by men - is a recipe for paranoia and misogyny.

If a man says, "No, I don't think you look fat," that may or may not be true, but if a man started telling women he doesn't even know, "Yes, I am sure your partner thinks you're fat. We men lie about that all the time, because you women are so gullible and needy"...

I would say that he was promoting misandry, sowing distrust, and unjustly accusing men he doesn't even know of lying while demeaning women

bluestar

You make several worthwhile points.

Regarding "scial constructs", this is not a matter of "how I feel", but the conclusions to which my analyses have led me. If you believe my analysis is flawed, please explain how.

If "social construct" means nothing more than "gross generalizations" or "invidious comparisons", "blatant stereotypes", or "pressure to conform", then one might simply label such things accordingly rather than taking the detour through muddled metaphysics, dubious social theory, buzz-words like "deconstruction" (frequently used by people who don't know enough Husserl to understand what Derrida was criticizing), and false, Scientistic, dichotomies, insinuating that biological descriptions are the only valid ones.

bluestar

Fair enough. And I probably am sometimes pedantic and perfectionistic about such things.

Incidentally, thank you for not taking my response as an attack. I had actually considered that it might be received that way and started to send an apology when I saw your follow up. Your approach is much appreciated

KD

I certainly wouldn't ascribe such behavior to all women, no. And it wouldn't surprise me if my own experience might be unusual, for any number of reasons. It could just be simply that I am "meeting the wrong women".

I also tend to be less dismissive and belittling than many men toward women when they express their views - I've often been told I am easy to talk to, sometimes told I am "like a girlfriend" (which I am really not too sure about), and heard quite a lot from women about their relationships (where I am usually supportive, but sometimes I'd rather not know certain things). It's possible some women may - perhaps not deliberately - treat me as a "punching bag" for that reason.

And that would all suggest that such talk is less typical than my experience would indicate.

Answer 1

Sure women spread misogyny, and in more ways than the one you mentioned. certain behaviors related to misandry and misogyny are accepted and internalized in our culture, ie: women fake orgasms, and men lie about if you look fat, women are more likely to sleep with you if youre rich, men only want sex, etc etc etc.
we accept them and we spread them as truths when they are, by and large, false. This is why it is so vitally important to deconstruct gender expectations and figure out what is biologically true, and what is a social construct. I know how you feel about the idea of social constructs, but what you are addressing here is a perfect example of one.

edit: you sound like my husband : ) I dont think your analysis is logically flawed, i just feel that your analysis may be a bit exclusive and that you have much higher expectations of people than they actually meet when it comes to intellectual experience. generally, i consider social constructs to be expectations of behavior that are based purely on things like tradition, or assumed universals of morality. When I use the term, I'm referring not only to mass generalizations, but to mass generalizations that a majority of people have internalized as a "natural" truth when there is nothing natural about it. social construction includes "invidious comparisons", "blatant stereotypes", and "pressure to conform", hence why they can't be used as the only label in these situations.

anyway, that is my understanding of social construction. I can see why you would be bothered with the way it gets thrown around by people who only have a very simplistic understanding of the concept. My understanding is probably more simplistic than it should be.

edit2: I try my best with real questions like yours to actually answer it and no jump to conclusions. Thank you for the discourse. its really refreshing : )

Answer 2

In the past, the man’s ability to support a family was, in my opinion, overvalued… above the woman who also made significant contributions to the family unit. In previous generations the only means of security open to women was finding a man to marry. Today women have a world of opportunities afforded to them that were not previously available. I think the majority of married men agree that their wife (working or not) has a significant and important role, and does not look down on but rather appreciates the role as stay-at-home parent. However, some people value capitalism over all else… There was a question on this page a few days ago about divorce; asking if a women deserves 50% of the martial property in a divorce. One person made the analogy... if the marriage was a company who is worth (or deserves more) the CEO or the janitor. That has stuck with me because I didn’t think people still looked at women who decide to become stay-at-home parents as unimportant. Attitudes take many generations to change and I am optimistic that we are headed in the right direction.

Answer 3

Normally, Gnu Sense, I have nothing but respect and admiration for both your questions and your answers. I'm not discrediting the plausibility of your argument, but I think it might be a little beyond the scope of plausibility to say that white lies can induce hatred. Misogyny (and misandry) is defined as a hatred of a gender, and true hatred is a difficult emotion to form, much less maintain, and to be able to do so for an entire gender, consisting mostly of people you have not, nor could you ever meet would certainly be difficult. To say that people inadvertently spread hatred by telling other people stereotypical falsehoods does a great disservice to the people on the receiving end of those lies. It says that they are not intelligent enough, or discerning enough to tell the difference between a generalization and information pertinent to their situation.
Paranoia, skepticism, distrust are all words that I would have whole-heartedly agreed with in your argument. However, hatred is simply too strong an emotion to be elicited by third-party commentary.

Answer 4

I answered your question about older women and younger looking men and I've just read this one.

It looks like you are spending time with childish, back-stabbing, immature girls who would undermind their own mother if given the chance.

The things that one girl said to you when you gave me "best answer" is downright vile. To answer your question, for me, I don't mind one bit if you "look young" as long as your brain is mature and you understand how to treat yourself and others.

I look young and often get teenagers chatting me up and I am old enough to be their mother.

As for this question, I can see your point but your experience is only a small portion of reality. The women I know, along with myself, would never tell men or women such silly things.

That is just weird: "I'm sure you've had many women 'fake it' with you". "Women lie to you all the time".

Those comments just sound like childish, playground style teasing / bullying and I'd wonder if they come out with these comments to other men.

How old are these women? Not that it matters THAT much but one would think that this sort of teasing / banter would be something reserved for very young adults.

Just remember that not ALL women are like these women. It is the same as remembering that not all men hate women and are trying to get their end away with whomever will give them a tumble.

Answer 5

I do think that women can inadvertently spread misogyny. We were all born into a culture that finds certain misogynistic practices acceptable, and many women internalize these beliefs. They then pass them on to their own children, and subconsciously work to keep the status quo.

It happens all the time.

Answer 6

Women spread misogyny, but not in the way you're suggesting.

Misogynists are made, not born.

A wise warrior in this struggle once uttered the damning phrase that spells the eventual downfall of feminism: "Hate bounces." In other words, the decades of misandry that have become commonplace thanks to feminism have sown a harvest, and the reaping has only begun.

I see on the internet younger and younger misogynists. They were raised by single mothers, lack direction and principles, and don't care about anything but what they can grab for themselves. And most importantly, they despise women. If they have any contact with them at all, it's to use them and lose them, as the saying goes. Normally in everyday speech, they can't express this hatred they feel. But on the internet, it's a public forum...and they're making themselves heard.

I don't think this is a good thing. Honest. I'm not a misogynist myself. But I UNDERSTAND. Women, with every joke about how inadequate men are, with every reaming a man takes in family court, and with every female murderer who walks free - contribute to misogyny.

It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

Answer 7

No body makes a misogynist other than the misogynist himself. And that is the simple truth, which is often too complicated for some Men to understand!