Devils advocate - natural horsemanship vs traditional?

Question

We've had this discussion on the board many times and it is assumed that horses broken or trained by any method other than "natural" is cruel and harsh and that natural horsemanship trainers are demi-gods with followers happy to throw $$$ at them to listen to their pearls of wisdom while the rest of us wallow in the darkness of the uninformed and unlightened.
Here's several articles that I'd like to share and that you might want to consider before you part with those hard earned pennies!

http://citizensforjustice.org/monty/carradine_lawsuit_pg2.html

http://citizensforjustice.org/monty/aussiefraud.html

http://citizensforjustice.org/monty/montypmu.html

http://thesecondsight.blogspot.com/2006/06/unnatural-horsemanship-2.html

Hand Full - with comments like that, anyone would think that you was my husband - fortunately you are not!

If you ride the lawsuit article, he used a TB belonging to someone else for the documentary where he followed that mustang for days. The TB ended up in bad shape and a broken leg - now that's what I call a horseman - NOT!

Answer 1

Never had much truck with it myself, I honestly consider it a fad and a moneyspinner. Anyone who actually spends time with their horse is going to develop a relationship with it without spending a fortune on "carrot sticks" and pieces of rope.
Only 2 people I knew had anything to do with this, one was the owner of a horrible miserable horse on a livery yard - he'd bite as soon as you looked at him unless you watched your back - obviously it was doing him a lot of good.
The other one attempted to demonstrate "joining up" to us with a 4 year old loony in our jumping paddock, luckily there's a fence around the tree in the middle and we were able to rescue her a short time later !
In a best case scenario I think it's a case of "no harm done" but on the other hand how many accidents have gone unremarked upon because we expect people to get injured around horses ?
As for the articles - they do nothing for the credibility of these "stars"

Answer 2

When the move "the horse whisperer" came out and Monty Roberts claimed to be the one and only, I read his book. I have to say, I laughed through most of it. He claims that he invented join up and whispering and even the slant load trailer. He is the biggest joke out there. Those are great articles and thanks for sharing them. I hope those that worship him will take a better look.

As for the NH trainers. I do like Clinton Anderson. I have bought his halter and a bit. The halter I love, it works great. Could I have made it myself, yes but why would I?? The bit I got is a very nice o-ring and it was cheaper then the same thing at a tack store. His reach out and touch you whip, it works great but I made that at home from a stick and old loung whip. I think it is mostly what makes you or someone else happy. I have ridden horses my whole life and trained a few also. I felt like Clinton did things like I would want to. Some of it is silly but I don't use what I don't like. He doesn't play games or beat around the bush and I love that.

A lot of the NH trainers help a lot of people who don't know much about a horse. More people are ridding and doing things now then ever before. I think that alone is great. More people should know the joys of horses. They should also do research on the different trainers.

Answer 3

I am an advocate for whatever works without getting the horse injured. Different horses, different situations call for a wide variety of training methods.

If you look at the video or book of Monty Roberts "Shy Boy", you'll see that out of the forty or so "wild" mustangs, Shy Boy was the only one with a BLM freeze brand. That means he had been caught before. And if you watch when the horse rears up, he either has the smallest testicles ever or none at all. If its none, well that would certainly change the story. Besides, what is so impressive about running a horse until it is exhausted and gives up? It is not joining up emotionally, it is running them into submission. It doesn't require ropes, but it is just as physically cruel.

What I wonder is, where do those trainers get their experience from? They are always traveling around putting on shows, and usually with the same horses. How do they gain really good training experience without working with a lot of different horses? I have barely enough time to work with my own horses - and I hardly ever travel. Just makes me wonder.

Answer 4

A friend of mine is all about natural horsemanship. We watched a monty roberts video together once. Monty took a mustang out on the range and chased it until the horse was so exhausted, its no wonder it let him do what he wanted too it. Of course my friend thought it was incredible and he was god after that. Some people don't see the fine print to what us experienced horsemen know. That might have sounded insulting.... Everybody has there methods of training horses and thats cool when it doesn't danger the equine. I personally do not see that anything they do is extrodinary. What irritates me the most about the horse giving in and understanding is when he is licking his lips. Well, to my experience, its called the horse is thirsty and I gurantee you if you put a bucket in front of him he will drink. Hmm, did I get off subject??

Answer 5

I really have no problem with "natural horsemanship". Yes, it is a fad, and costs a lot of money, but at least those people are bonding and spending time with their horses. I would rather them do that then leave their horse sit in a stall for weeks and see it every month or so.

Something I think is funny- I have never heard of parrelli until this past year, but my horse was able to complete all 7 games the first time we tried them- just because she was bonded to me. You do not need to pay money for that, you just need to spend time with your horse.


honestly, natural horsemanship is just a new coined term, but has been around forever. It is essentially knowing your horse and how you need to act with them. Some horses need to be coddled to be good mounts. I have trained one that would go in a panic attack if you ever threatened him, even just verbally. I have had other horses that essentially needed to be worked into the ground and disciplined harshly until they respected you, which sometimes took weeks.
Once I get the respect, then I start the bonding/trusting. Sometimes it takes months, other horses respect you immediately. You can't trust a horse you can't respect, and vice versa.

Answer 6

Personally, I don't think any one person or trainer is the "best in his field" but we can learn something from each. all horses are individuals, with their own brain and mind. No two people or trainers are exactly alike either...therefore, we as a trainer or rider or handler must find the right way and/or easy way to handle any particular horse. What works great for one person and one horse may not work for the guy next door and his horse.
I say that these new comers (last 20 years) that call them selves NH trainers along with their gimmicks and flash phrases are great marketeers. They are entertaining the audiences, and making money too. We all have to make a living. I guess there are enough people who have enough time and money to spend on gimmicks, clinics and in the barn and in the round pen or where ever training and playing with their horses, while I go out and ride my half trained horse but have fun while doing it. That is fine...I am happy with my horse even if he does not know how to play one of the seven games nor do I... So ....NH trainer,(makes $$) and their followers,(spends $$) and me and my horse are all happy. I see no one holding a gun to anyones head forcing them to follow or not to follow the trainers and their methods.

Answer 7

My personal preferance is natural horsemanship. In fact I read one of the derogatory remarks about Parelli and that is who I use and have used and will continue to use. Do I try to push it on people? No, because I know that it is not for everybody. Every person has their way that works best for them. This does not make me right and somebody else wrong that just means we have two differant ways to get to where we are going.

Just like horse breeds are stereotyped I think that people useing what ever method they enjoy all of us are stereotyped also. And just as there are exceptions to every stereotype in horses it is the same with us horse people. There are those who have no buisness training a horse at all... and that is some people who claim to be natural...and some traditional.

My thought is to each their own, what ever works for you!

Answer 8

Good question ;)

I think they both have their place.

Personally, I believe its the NH'ers that have turned traditional into something deemed horrific.

They believe that if you don't train the Parelli way, you are evil and sub human. Its amazing my animals have lived this long.

Theres good and bad in both and I do both with training. However, there are times that those old cowboys have just the right advice needed for some renegade that TV probably couldn't handle.

I have seen those old cowboys twiddle a bit out of a metal pitchfork tine to help a horse bend at the poll when all other traditional methods failed. Not saying its right or wrong, saying it worked.

So basically I use what works the easiest for my mules and I. Could be traditional things (which I don't believe are that far off from the NH'ers, just they named it).

I don't adhere to gimmicks and I will never ride a mule out on the trails with a halter. I won't ride bareback either. I don't believe either is safe on a trailride and want to make sure I don't make a spectacle out of myself in public.

On the other hand, I don't believe in training aids and believe that the complete use of hands, seat and legs and voice is what turns out a nice trained up animal.

Answer 9

My two cents worth.
natural horsemanship has been around for thousands of years. Xenophon in his book on horsemanship before the time of Christ says very much the same things that most natural horseman say.
I learned most of my training methods from my daddy who learned them from all sorts of places but much of it from my uncle who rode with the calvary. He was with some of the last of the mounted calvary. I supposed you'd call their methods traditional. Many are the same as I hear from the vast numbers of "natural" horseman.
Most of these trainers are no longer really training horses they are training people. If they can earn a good living doing it more power to them.
do their methods work with all people and all horses? No. There are some I don't much like and so methods I really like but the presenter rubs me the wrong way. You pick and you choose.
But for people who have no background in horses these people are offering a much needed service. someone has to help them learn in a safe way. Personally, I've seen Monty Roberts and I'd say that a great many of his methods are much more traditional than natural. his Duely halter is identical to ones I used in the 1960s. I've seen one of his demos and was not impressed.
If you really want some good "natural" horsemanship for real people with absolutely nothing for sale read "True Horsemanship through Feel" by Bill Dorrance and Lesley Drummond.

Answer 10

Thank you for your post! I have not had the time to look this information up myself and yet know many horses totally messed up by that nonsense. I am not interested in how many games my horse can play! I need him to stand on the ground with respect and to ride well. Under the saddle he needs to do what I ask when I ask. Anything else is silliness!

If I had all the time in the world I might work a little more with him. I already work two jobs though so what time I get with him needs to be productive and satisfying, for both of us. That means me in the saddle and him showing me what he can do (and if the last time was any indication he will be a top versatility horse next year).

I am not impressed by gimmicks. I train using bits and pieces from anywhere I can get them. Adapting each and every piece to the horse I am breaking at the time. Some horses can't be disciplined much even if they do something wrong, or perhaps I should say a discipline for one horse is torture for another. Others must not be allowed to run until they get everything else down. Others I start in full bit while every once in a while I will train one to snaffle first. Each and every time it depends on the horse and what my little gut is telling me.

BTW I am referring to the riding issues alone.