Mutation nation, sans evolution?

Question

If a common ancestor is supposed to become a man by mutation,

but every single mutation so far witnessed leads to retardation, e.g. try fruit flies

then um, how did all the extra information to code for opposable thumbs and enlarged brains enter the gene pool?

One good way of inserting information into gene pools is by having sex and creating offspring with new and recombined dna

but since there were no humans around to introduce human genes, how could this of taken place

can someone please name one, just one, observed mutation, that has led to an increase in genetic information

this is necessary otherwise the process has no new information to work with,

Fruitfleies have undergone hundreds of thousands of mutations,

they have doubled wings, grown extra legs, but no new material other than what they already possess has been witnessed

um anyone got an answer for me.....guys

PETER Sickle cell anaemia does not add information

it merely retards the red blood cell and alters it shape, giving it A DIMINSHED capacity to carry oxygen.And the red blood cells have problems navigating capillary channels so they pool up and cause pain for anaemic people

AS enzymes are speciific the plasmodium parasite can not lock on the red blood cell

However the person with sickle cell anameia has a reduced capacity to carry blood, and oxygen, and feels more tired as a result

this is not evolution, it's retardation the only bonus being you live in a place where malaria is

Give me an example of a mutation that adds
information

common ancestor got thumbs by mutation, but no observed mutation adds information, it merely uses the information already present, therefore you can't get opposoble thumbs by mutation if you did not already have them

but if you did have them then you could end up with 3 of them, not likely but not impossible by mutation

so give me just one example of a mutation that adds information

It's ok if you can't as Ruchard Dawkins couldn't either

maybe i should offer cash for this one

David: Yes some are posititve sickle cell anaemia can be positive in a malaria country, but postive or negative we have not seen an increae in information, We have not seen an introduction of new genes that lead to new features, e.g. from no thumbs to having thumbs....

Peppered moths have some black spots, dark moths are completely black,

They are using the information thats alreadyt there to accomplish this by mutation

e.g. black panthers, and normal jaguars

Answer 1

sickle cell anemia as a means to protect against malaria.
I dont know the mutation's specific target and name, but that is a clear example of an observed mutation in a population over time.

Answer 2

>"um anyone got an answer for me.....guys"

I have four (4) answers for you:

1. Joan H beat me with my favorite example (as I study color theory) ... the mutation that led to a new photopigment in Old World primates ... which why Old World primates have three color-vision, while New World primates, and most other mammals only have two-color vision.

An extra photopigment (a new and useful protein) is "new information" by *ANY* definition of information.

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2. The example *you gave* of the opposable thumb is a good one. You ask how opposable thumbs could arise in humans, but in fact, opposable thumbs have been around a lot longer than humans. All apes (not just humans) have opposable thumbs, as do most Old World Monkeys (African and Asian monkeys), but not New World Monkeys (South and Central American monkeys).

This is evidence that the opposable thumb mutation (as did the three-color vision mutation) arose in the primates long *before* humans split from the other apes, but long *after* the split between Old World and New World primates due to continental drift that separated Africa and the American continent.

In fact, there's even more evidence that our opposable thumb is a result of shared ancestry with the other apes. We still have remnants in our feet of the ancestral ability to grasp with our feet as well (i.e. four opposable thumbs as the other apes have). This includes (1) the plantaris muscle ... a long thin, muscle in the foot and calf that is totally useless in humans, but is the muscle used for grasping with the feet in other primates; (2) the physical bone structure of your big toe ... e.g. it has two bones (one less knuckle) like your thumb, and unlike your other fingers and toes (which have three bones); (3) it is shorter, fatter, and stronger than your other toes (just as your thumb is shorter, fatter, and stronger than the other fingers; (4) more nerves and muscles dedicated to your big toe than your other toes, which is why you can wiggle your big toe independently of the other toes; (5) there is no "design" reason that the thumb has to be on the inside, or the big toe on the inside, much less any reason they *both* need to be the inside digit.

In short, your big toe has more in common with your thumb, than with the other toes.

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3. The sickle cell mutation given by others is indeed "new information" whether you admit it or not. There is no reason "new information" must exclude "bad" information (something that causes a debilitation of some function). In most cases, such new information doesn't last long. But in the case of sickle-cell, this also confers immunity to malaria, which is one reason it has propagated.

In other words, you have too simplistic a definition of "new information" if you think it always has to be "good" information.

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4. Every time you get a new flu shot, that is because "new information" has appeared in the genome of the flu viruses. That is the only way that this year's flu viruses managed to develop immunity to last-year's flu shot. That immunity is certainly "new information" ... and is certainly *beneficial* information (for the virus).

I have had creationists reply that this is not "new information" but rather, selection on old information that was already in the virus's DNA. My response is to ask whether they really believe that God, at the moment of Creation, put the genes for immunity for all vaccines that *every would be invented by man* (including all the vaccines that we have not yet discoverd), into the DNA of viruses. This is both a technical impossibility (as the genomes of viruses would have to be *enormous*) and also a bizarre thing to think theologically ... i.e. that God "designed" viruses 6,000 years ago, in anticipation of thwarting the eventual invention of medicine ... or God is continually "redesigning" the DNA of viruses to make them more infectious every year.

What's your opinion?

Answer 3

You don't like sickle cell so how about this one.

Red/green color vision came along in primates that lived in the jungle and prospered by finding the red fruit and leaves in the green jungle.

This extra color vision came about because another color gene duplicated itself in a mutation. This extra color vision gene was carried along in a few hundred generations and eventually mutated again to provide red/green vision.

Various monkeys and apes have this red/green color vision and it helps them to survive and produce more offspring in their particular environment. Humans have this same gene, but are losing it because it is no longer necessary for finding food. At the present time about 8% of human males do not have red/green color vision.

Answer 4

Technichally, MRSA and VRE and other strains of antibiotic resistant bacteria, have adopted positive mutations (for themselves). They've mutated to lose the segment of DNA that allowed susceptibility to specific antibiotics. So I'm not sure if it is an increase in genetic info, but it is a difference that allows them to live and reproduce more successfully, which is all that is required.

Answer 5

Your preaching to the choir, bud... biologists already know that 99.5-ish percent of mutations are negative, and most of the rest are "neutral". A very small percentage are positive (e.g. the Peppered Moth).

Answer 6

how bout the X-Men? :)