Have the FIA and ferrari proved beyond 100% that McLaren used the data on this year's car?

Question

ferrari fans don't answer as you will say yes anyway.

Answer 1

Well, you cant control who is to answer or not.

Take a look at the ruling, it clearly says unfair competitive advantage. If it was 100% evidence, then bye bye McLaren.

I'd like to say that absolute piracy never occurs, instead engineering and tactical data are analysed for knowing competitor 's advantage. This makes the thieves develop their technology based on the other's strengths or weakness.

The accusation was illegal possession and unfair benefitting, both have been proven and duly admitted by McLaren. They are most likely not to appeal, a telltale confession if you want.

You can linger on the pathetic 100% proof stuff, something unheard of in industrial espionage, but the truth is out.

Ron Dennis was lying to you folks, why still support him? After all, isnt he the one who tipped himself off?

Answer 2

It's fair to say that the actual car design is by Mclaren.
Also, Mclaren handed over data which included design schematics and so on to the FIA at the first hearing which proved that the designs were by Mclaren.
However, the recent hearing has revealed many emails concerning the testing of parts, most notably tyres, brakes, rear wing and also the overall weight balance of the car. It would seem that Ferrari data had been used to improve these parts.
So in effect it's possible to say that the design of the car is 100% Mclaren while the Ferrari data helped them iron out a few flaws. Basically, Mclaren cheated and in fairness they have got off bloody lightly.
Musonic has a very good point though. With the way teams are run it is pefectly feasable to imagine that Ron was in the dark. After all, he shopped his own team to the FIA after Alonso allegedly threatened to hand it over if he wasn't given preferential treatment.
Basically, it would seem as though Ron has been stabbed in the back by his employees and very publicly by one fairly normal and incredibly selfish driver.
To me, this throws doubt on Alonso's whole career so far. How will people look back now and think he won 2 championships on merit? How will people respect him if he wins a third by blatantly cheating?
Alonso is a man without shame or class.
Ron Dennis on the other hand, he's been at this now for nearly 30 years. I doubt he'd be involved as it would mean throwing 30 years away. We've seen Mclaren not performing well in the past and comeback, so why would Ron do something this stupid now?

Answer 3

The answer is possibly yes, judging from the e-mails, which have yet to be released to the public. The FIA intend to publish the entire thing in the coming week.

However, when it comes to actual car-design, the answer is probably no, and any "advantage" (if that is the right word) concerns tyres and pit-stop strategy; both quite important.

You have to understand how a Formula 1 team works to understand how someone like Ron Dennis, and the management of Maclaren, may have been unaware of what was going on.

Each driver has his own chief-mechanic and team, and they operate almost in a bubble, quite separately from that of their team-mates. That doesn't mean that information is not poooled and shared, but it does mean that it is possible for a rogue employee to influence the strategy of "his" preferred or designated driver, and without anyone else knowing.

This is what I believe may have been the case, as Mike Coughlan seemed to be feeding information to the Pedro de la Rossa which came from Ferrari; presumably from Nigel Stepney, who is alleged to have been involved in this sharing of confidential information.

What sickens me, is the stupidity of Max Moseley, who has assumed that Ron Dennis and the wider Maclaren outfit knew all about it, when it looks as if they didn't. He effectively called Ron Dennis a liar, which as everybody knows, is not the Ron Dennis they trust and respect.

Unfortunately, what has happened has happened, and if even a tiny part of the team act in an unsporting way or get their hands on copyright information, then as employees, they bring the whole team down with them if they are discovered.

In any event, the information-flow was over a period of about three months; some of it prior to the start of the season, and it is quite interesting to note that since then, Ferrari have gone backwards, and Maclaren have gone forwards.

Even if Ferrari have been handed the title on a plate, they cannot escape the fact that their machinery has been unreliable as compared to the Maclaren, and on that basis, obviously inferior.

Now if they can just get the electronics, the shock-absorbers and the rear-suspension sorted out, they might win the driver's championship by their own efforts, but I suspect that this is just a little beyond the reach of Todt and the Todty men.

Answer 4

I think it has - they showed on the news emails between Alonso and Pedro de la Rosa where Pedro talks about 'Ferrari are using a different gas in their tyres to others....yes my information is reliable, it's from (insert mecahnics name here because I've forgotten it)' which shows that Pedro knew about the data and Alonso was happily using it.

Although the car itself was supposed to have been signed off before the McLaren mechanic got hold of the data.

Hamilton had nothing to do with it and I believe Ron Dennis didn't know anything either. Alonso should be penalised instead of, or at least along with, the team. But F1 is all about the money and the fans (mainly the fans' money) so they won't upset the competitive driver's championship this year.

Answer 5

The FIA does not have to prove the information obtained was used to enhance the Mclaren. All they have to prove is that they had possession of this information. This was proven.
The FIA report says

"there was a clear intention on the part of a number of McLaren personnel to use some of the Ferrari confidential information in its own testing. If this was not in fact carried into effect it was only because there were technical reasons
not to do so"

This goes on to say

"The evidence leads the WMSC to conclude that some degree of sporting advantage was obtained, though it may forever be impossible to quantify that advantage in concrete terms"..

To me this says Mclaren had information they may have used to make their car faster.

Funny thing is the Mclaren didn't do so well last year and this year it is the best car. Go Figure?

Answer 6

Yes. The e-mails between Alonso and Pedro de la Rosa shows that they knew about the data. As for whether McLaren used the data to their advantage, it's pretty obvious that they did. What team wouldn't if they could benefit from it?

And it's not necessary that all Ferrari fans would say yes. Same applies for McLaren fans- not all of them will say no.

Answer 7

well..if ferrari fans will say yes McLaren will say no.... it's not impartial my genius...
i think they didn't say all information to the press, but if FIA did it is because they had a lot of information proving that..it's too big panality and McLaren didn't say anything about this panality...there is a reason...
at McLaren aren't so dump to use ferrari information to build the same car, it would be too clear for everyone...they used years of research payed from ferrari to build a better car.. the advantage is millions dollar saved because someone else did the study (it's a sort of copyright violeted..)

Answer 8

Everything i have read and heard on this has banked on supposition so i guess the FIA just wanted Ferrari to win the constructors title for the gazillionth time?
Why let the truth get in the way of a good story and 50million big ones?

Answer 9

NO. ferrari are just as guilty inasmuch they allowed their employee so much info to be available to be handed over to some other organisation beit mclaren , honda or anyone else . ferrari are an itialian outfit most likely with mafiosi links and are not averse to subersive tactics , most likely this was planned to fool the fia and has done so

Answer 10

Not as far as I can see. I've read the judgment and I think the data from Ferrari was misleading, purposely designed to fool McLaren.
McLaren don't see to have benefited much from having the information, one of the reasons why I think Ferrari set McLaren up
Have read through some of the answers to my earlier question, some are interesting.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Aqkr.3HmK2oRs2eGXiTMCIzsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20070914114525AAo1un5

Answer 11

i dont think they have but what has to be remembered, maybe something in the ferrari report stated that something they had tried such as a new wing was found to be of no use but what if mclaren where thinking of trying the same wing then they would know it would be useless and not bother trying it so saving developement time and money.
p.s i am a mclaren fan and honestly believe ron dennis when he says he knew nothing about all of this