Is Mark Messier...overrated?

Question

I'm sure I'm going to catch a great deal of flak for this question, esecially from the Rangers and Oilers fans. However, it has to be asked. The inspiration for my question comes from an earlier question asked by someone a couple weeks ago comparing Steve Yzerman and Mark Messier.

While Messier was a great player, do we as hockey fans tend to overrate him? After all, he gets lauded for basically having a great series in 1994 when he guaranteed a Game Six win the the Eastern finals against New Jersey (and scored a hat trick in the process). Yzerman on the other hand, is often overlooked in circles because he spent his entire career with one city that really didn't become a dominant hockey power until the last decade of his career. Was it a New York thing that left Messier with a more favorable position in our minds, or is the hype surrounding his leadership skills warranted? In other words, is the legend of Mark Messier overrated?

Keep in mind that I'm saying Messier was garbage as a player. He was great, but I say he tends to be overrated as a captain and player, more lauded than Steve Yzerman, Ron Francis, and especially Jean Beliveau.

An addendum- I'm NOT trying to say Messier was garbage as a player! Scrap the first part of my first added detail! Messier was a great and Hall of Famer, as we all know.

cme- Yes. I didn't want anyone o think I was ripping Messier. I have no beef with him. He didn't single-handedly slaughter my team during the regular season or playofs. He never made disparaging comments toward anyone. His numbers were outstanding. My sentiment is that when I think of a great captain, Steve Yzerman or Ron Francis or Scott Stevens first come to mind before Mark Messier.

Zamdriver- I am a neutral observer in terms of this question. I have no strong allegiance towards either player involved. While I have heard more about the legend of Messier, I spend the majority of my life in Red Wings country, fully exposed to the exploits of Yzerman. I have an opinion, but finding a like opinion is not what I seek. I'm in true search of a best answer, irregardless of what my opinion is. That is the basic premise of why I asked the question. I simply seek to gauge the general concensus of the group, as opposed to fuel my ego.

Answer 1

Messier's talents and numbers cannot be disputed, but his reputation as the quintessential leader and captain are largely overstated.

As a captain, he was hardly a unifying force in the dressing room. His solution for achieving team chemistry was never to help find common ground with his teammates, nor was it to lead by example. Instead, Messier chose to run anyone he didn't like out of town.

Do you remember the exile of Zubov and Nedved from the Rangers? How about the $21M Messier stole from the Canucks in exchange for 3 years of taking up space and tearing the team apart? That sh!t-show came back to NY for 4 more years of futility, demagoguery and check collecting.

He racked up the points, won his cups and NY dubbed him the 'messiah' for '94, but he rode that season's performance for the last DECADE of his career.

As good a player as he was, he was also an opportunist and a polarizing force on every team he played for (ask Gretzky what he thinks of Messier). So, overrated? Off the ice, absolutely.

Yzerman, by the way, is a full Zdeno Chara (with skates on) above Messier as a captain and leader. Cripes, even I'd go through a wall if Yzerman asked me to and I'm a Ranger fan.

Great question as usual, Snoop.

Answer 2

Mark Messier is overrated to some degree. His play in the 94 cup run was amazing, and the whole thing about him gauranteeing a win is incredible. He was definitely a great hockey player, but i dont think his name should be mentioned with the likes of Yzerman and Lemieux. Notice I didnt put Gretzky in there. I do not like Gretzky all that much. I dont think you can put him in the catagory of great leaders when he played for 4 different teams. If he was going to be a good leader, he would have stayed with Edmonton or L.A. atleast. Just my opinion though. He was a great guy and role model to the young ones and everyone alike.

Anyways, Messier should not be held up with Yzerman. Yzerman, like you said, spent his ENTIRE career with the Wings, built the team up with his leadership, and after many years of hard work, turned the deadwings into the dominant powerhouse team they are today. Sure, they only won 3 cups in the last ten years, but they are always favored to their division and conference, and also the cup! Yzerman also took huge pay cuts to get other players to build up the team for a successful season. He could have went to another team and recieved 3 to 4 times what he was paid at Detroit. The man sacrificed so much for the Wings.

I'm not much of a Penguins fan, but Mario Lemieux also took charge of his team like Yzerman. Look what he has done for that franchise lately. He got the Penguins to stay in Pittsburg with a new stadium being built. Truely amazing!

Answer 3

As a player, I think Messier was underrated. The fact he gets very little publicity for being 2nd on the all-time points list is amazing. Almost 700 goals, almost 1200 assists. Almost 1900 career points.

As a captain, I think he was overrated. 16 seasons as a captain and only making the playoffs 8 times. 16 seasons as a captain and only finishing .500 or above 8 times. Two Stanley Cups as captain, but 1990 was due more to what Gretzky left behind than what Messier did and 1994 was due more to Iron Mike than Messier.

It should also be noted that during the 2004-2005 lockout, Keenan, Dirk Irvin, Brian MacFarlane, Ron MacLean, and Jim Hughson got together during a Saturday afternoon sports telecast and picked their 20 best captains in NHL history. Messier wasn't among them. When asked by an audience member, both Irvin and Hughson said he wasn't even close.

Again, a great player, but his record as captain leaves a lot to be desired.

Answer 4

I dunno.

Messier was a giant in the game long before he went to New York, with all the Cups won with the Oilers (including a huge one after Gretzky was long gone). To me his time with the Rangers was just the icing on a career that was already marked for the Hall of Fame.

I love Stevie Y. but everyone seems to forget that he struggled in his early years before he won those Cups in Detroit and his leadership abilities were constantly being questioned in the Motor City. At one point the Wings had him all but traded in 1995. He kept getting cut from Team Canada. The second half of his career was a completely different, but it was very much a come-from-behind story.

Messier was a high-scoring bull right out of the gate, performed at an all-star level each year, and he was still going strong in his 40's.

I think my test is the question: If I was starting a team, knowing what I know now, which one of these guys would I pick now as an 18-year-old? In terms of getting the most for my buck for every year each guy played in the league, it would be Messier hands down.

Answer 5

No, he isn't. He was a great player, and a great captain. He guaranteed victory. If it wasn't for him and the 1993-94 Rangers, the fans who taunt the Rangers would still chant "1940". Messier is one of the greatest hockey players of all time.

Answer 6

Most definitely and not because I'm from Vancouver. I always thought he got away with murder (clubbed Gradin over the noggin, basically nailed Kovin with an elbow, crosschecked Gilmour in the head, etc.). If you look at how the NYR did as soon as he retired (i.e., returned to the playoffs and jagr woke up), I think later in his career he was vastly overrated as a "leader."

Answer 7

I'd rate him somewhere between Ronnie Franchise and Stevie Y. Gotta remember, if you're in NY and do anything remotely close to good, you're hyped up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. They'll tear you apart just as fast, though. So, yeah he certainly deserves some accolades but I would not put him in the same category as Gretzky et al.

Answer 8

Depends, what do you want to hear???

Do you desire an answer that mimics your own preconceived notions, or are you really in search of some outside, neutral insight?

Tough to tell....My mom used to put gold stars on my drawings when I was a kid, but it didn't make me a good artist. Confirming your own opinion is mental masturbation.

Answer 9

He is absolutely overrated. People (his fans?) constantly talk about him guaranteeing victory. Everybody and their dog guarantees victory these days. It's a no-lose situation. If you win, suckers talk about how great you are. If you lose, nobody remembers you ever said it in the first place.

Answer 10

Mark Messier is way overrated and he sucks.