IF the feminist movement is really to blame?

Question

for divorce, crime, and broken homes, then why can't anti-feminists (mainly MEN) understand the concept that there wouldn't BE a feminist movement if not for the oppression of women (by men) that exists? In other words, which came first? The "chicken or the egg"? Where's YOUR accountability? Do feminists need to apologize to the world for disrupting your patriarchy, your dominance, your privilege? Perhaps if we had equal rights and equal opportunities to begin with, there'd be no need to argue the points we're arguing now.

Super Ruper: Maybe I do think that African Americans should be compensated somehow for the the slavery, prejudice and discrimination we've put them through. Do you also think that Native Americans do not deserve compensation?

...the very least compensation we should be willing to give is to forward the idea and practice of equality. That's just my opinion.

I realize this opens up a whole new debate...lol

Codrina: I thoroughly enjoyed reading your answer! Great perspective!

Way: I appreciate reading your perspective as well!


Lots of really great answers here so far- thanks to everyone who has contributed. We've had ourselves one of the first most educational debates I've seen in this forum in quite awhile. Thanks for that! I, for one, have learned a few things by taking in your answers.

Answer 1

TERA,

this will sound boring, but, just give me a few minutes and see if what I say makes sense.

Part 1 - B.C.

Prior to what is now considered the beginning of our time, the year 0, coming of Christ, society was matriarchal for close to 25000 years. Men and women worshiped both male and female deities, polytheistic religions, such as witchcraft (today's Wicca), were the norm, and not the devil. Archaeologists have found statues of Venus/Aphrodite (one example), along with statues of other gods and goddesses dating as far back as 25000 B.C. Society was matriarchal and matrilineal because WOMEN are the ones who carry the child for 9 months in their womb. The children took the mother's name because they literally came out of their mother - for all of those who keep b!tching and moaning - you too, came out of your mother's vagina, remember that. Back then, property could be passed to a girl or a boy, women could hold office, women were priestesses, as were men, and sex wasn't such a big deal that degraded women and somehow glorified men. Sex was spiritual, one connected to another and, during orgasm, it has been said, one connected with the universe, which some call god. In other words, sex was good, and clean, and godly, and pure. Not bad for a bunch of pagans, right?!

There is a theory that at some point, men (geniuses that they are), figured out they TOO had something to do with procreation (the little sperm that some many mention above). I couldn't tell you how or why, but this theory has been argued by Merlin Stone, archaeologist, sculptor and author, in her book, "When God Was a Woman". If you are interested in history of men and WOMEN, you have to get this book, trust me!

Part 2 - A.C.

Enter the Jewish tribes into the area of Canaan, present day Israel and previously Palestine. These people decide that women have it too good, I am guessing, because they start passing laws. The veiling of a woman is Jewish in origin, not Arabic or Muslim. I'm not sure if you know, but Orthodox Jews, who claim to be the true Jewish people (as opposed to moderate Jews, some of who I am friends with), have their women shave their head and veil their skull once they get married. Surprised, huh?! The stoning of a woman is also Jewish at its origin - even if the woman got raped - she was to be stoned to death.

In comes the bible (the MOST READ book in the world), a book written by 12 men, 11 Jewish and Luke, the Greek. In this book, a NEW myth is created. Lilith, Adam's original wife is demonized, she becomes a succubus, while Eve damns women for the next 2007 years (and counting). With Eve, they killed the myth of the old goddesses, making the serpent, a sacred animal to the old religion, evil. It is the snake (phallic symbol, ironically) who deceives Eve.

Part 3 - Today

So here we are, 2007 years later:
PATRIARCHY = a form of social organization in which the father is the supreme authority in the family, clan, or tribe and descent is reckoned in the male line, with the children belonging to the father's clan or tribe. In other words, "father knows best."

There is nothing to apologize for. Feminism is about regaining BALANCE, yin and yang. Survival of the fittest ideologies, a laissez faire economy, lack of education, lack of communication, and GREED. Now those are our universal problems.

Of course, hiding behind our religious beliefs and blaming it on feminism is so much easier than thinking. People, learn your history so you don't keep repeating the same mistakes, and for Pete's sake, stop pointing fingers at one another.

Thanks for your time, Tera. Excellent question.

Answer 2

I don't think the feminist movement is to blame, it is just women asserting their right to be treated equally. Just because women are a majority does not mean they were not treated as a minority.

Individuals and groups of people are always trying to take advantage(OK not everybody). When one group gains some power they try to make it permanent. Throughout history one group, race of religion has preyed upon others. Frequently the oppressed seem willing participants in this oppression, look at many muslim women today. Many men are glad to see equality between the sexes but there will always those(men & women) who seek power by supressing others. That is why it is aways a never ending battlle

As far as compensation, I am totally against historic compensation, because it would never end. If we pay blacks for slavery, what about indians, then what about the irish or italians or chinese. All were treated harshly when they first arrived. If a black has a white slave owner as a ancestor does he get less being half slave or more because it was probably due to rape. How to we caculate the tax we are going to impose to pay compensation on someone who arrived from china in the 1920's. We would need the genogical history of everyone in the US from the date the first slave arrived to today to caculate their portion of the debt. Who pays for the indians, just those whose ancestors were here to the time we stopped killing them or all the way till now since they are still discriminated against. Why not just give them back their land.

Where are you going to move to.

Answer 3

The problem is you can't litigate equality. Some one will always end up on the short end of the stick. Granted in the past there have been some very stupid people that took advantage of their positions. That being said is no reason to swing the pendulum completely in the opposite direction, so much so many women view men as their mortal enemy. That does no one any good. It boils down to the golden rule, treat others as you would want them to treat you. I personally love women. Will Rogers said he never met a man he didn't like, I have never met a woman I didn't like, if I had to be stuck on a deserted island with one or the other, I would prefer the woman.That's why God made Eve and not Steve.

Answer 4

It's difficult to believe someone is for equal rights when they are one-sided. Why don't you ask "Which came first? The rooster or the sperm?"
It's a myth that being a man has always been such a sweet deal. Maybe if someone was wealthy, but that would apply to women too. Lower and middle class men have had their share of injustices. Men died in wars and worked themselves to death and women have been trapped in roles that degrade and negate them. Don't confuse class struggles with women being oppressed. As it stands today women have minority status (males, particularly white males, are discriminated against). Women don't have to register for the draft. Women own most the wealth in America (65% by women 55 through 70 years old).
Perhaps if men had equal rights and opportunities they would be more willing to accept women as equals. Some of us do anyway, which would be easier if we weren't being blamed for everything some people don't like, real or imagined.

Answer 5

You raise a good point--am I the bad guy for POINTING OUT there was injustice?

The example that annoys me the most is marriage and women being blamed for the increased divorce rate. No one seems to be able to acknowledge how lopsided marriage was to begin with. Just over a hundred years ago, a woman didn't even have a choice whether or not to GET married--unless she wanted to make a living as a seamstress. And then, no matter how miserable your marriage might be, you'd be a pariah if you left--even if you'd been beaten, it didn't matter! Not that you WOULD leave, since you were totally financial dependent on your husband.

So obviously under those circumstances, there was less divorce but ?????? THIS was the "grand age of marriage?" These were "family values?" Why, why why would anyone think this arrangement was so ideal it should be preserved in perpetuity?

I personally think marriage will come around again. We no longer judge a marriage on its longevity, we judge it on its happiness--for BOTH parties. Women initiate divorce more often than men do right now, and this makes sense to me. Based on "traditional" marriage values, men didn't really have to think much about being good husbands, did they? I'm not sure they've caught up to the fact that we would like them to be our partners in life, we no longer just NEED them to give us food and shelter...there is more to being a husband than just "to be." Isn't this GOOD news? Aren't you interested in being MORE than just "he who works all day and brings food?" Good grief.

Answer 6

I have the same problem when arguing with Ex-Pat south afrikaans about the state of their homeland. If apartheid hadn't been so cruel- then the reaction after it ended wouldn't have been so hateful.

However, now we have to be clever, nobody considered, and i find this abominable, what would happen when we doubled our workforce. And nobody even considered what would happen to our young men.

Youth male suicide has now reached an almost epidemic proportion (and yet is still almost completely ignored by government initiatives and peoples movements) and statistically one can see a strong relationship with youth-male suicide and employment and a lack of male pride, however, as i see it, as an educator, our schools are still too busy talking about the glass ceiling for women, and telling girls they can do anything, and that they are overacheiving past the boys in school (which they are) then addressing an emerging concern of our young men offing themselves in record numbers.

Being born in 1981, i find it hard to relate to your above statement because i have never benefitted from patriarchy, since i was a young child i was taught to give women in fact, preferential and deferential treatment- not to tease or hit girls, to be nice to girls, to open the door for them, i was taught that they are smarter than me, they achieve better marks, girls are sweet, boys are dirty, As a teenager i lost many of my friends and peers to suicide, guess how many were girls... none, which was strange because i was in co-ed environments for most of my schooling, and the majority of my friends in my older teenage years were females.

Now i'm 25+ and a teacher, and i see the same thing with kids in schools- there are programs for young women, support groups, the syllabus is full of strong women role models, the role of women is a study in geography, history and english -in the rhetoric women are told how much they can, and have to, acheive. Boys are put on the backburner, they are constantly in trouble, the historical accomplishments of males are inserted into the accomplishments of humanity rather then seen as male achievements (unlike the successes of women historically) their behaviour is considered 'problematic'.

Young men have no accountability or memory that extends past when they were born- and their perception and treatment is that they are worthless and without a true role in this society compared to young women.

I think that the issue with feminism is that it is a movement created by people, and fundamentally, people are a selfish lot who only care about themselves, nuts to everyone else whether it be a person, a race, or a gender, this is why the typical die-hard feminist is a white middle class female- a person who has beniffited, as much as any white-middle class male from the centuries of oppression of minorities, and the poor within their own countries, and yet it seems they only have one, myopic eye when it comes to oppression.

There are always 2 sides to a story.

Way.

Answer 7

I don't see any reason why being a feminist is considered as a sin. Feminist don't need to apologyze to the world because what they aiming is the right for equal opportunity. Divorced and broken home happened the same reason why the couple decided to wed - a decision agreed by both parties!

Answer 8

That's a good question. It was the groundswell of dissent from wives and mothers that started it. They had been buried in the suburbs to wax floors and bake cupcakes, and be patronised by husbands who took to working late at the office. Husbands were bored with commuting to the suburbs. It was a good excuse for women to get an education and earn their own living. So the feminists ran with it, Betty Friedan wrote about it and Hugh Hefner published 'Playboy' - that was HIS contribution - every salaryman a playboy. It would have happened anyway - women had become disillusioned with marriage since the second world war. (Except in countries where the women are 'protected' like France, where women didn't get the vote until the end of the war!)

Men protecting women? Now there's a red herring for a start! Who are they protecting us from? Women carry all the heavy loads in other countries, but the sight of a lady carrying more than her reticule, made men swoon in the 1880s Did you never see pictures of women miners in the North of England, dragging the trucks from narrow seams deep into the coal mines? They didn't earn as much as men, but it was a better wage than they would be paid anywhere else. Politicians in London heard about it and stopped it at once to 'protect' them from 'unwomanly work.' Who cared if their children starved? It was called chivalry - busybody men protecting working women earning good money.

Men are unable to prevent themselves interminably interfering with women's affairs. They don't understand the affairs, they certainly don't understand the women, but they never stop whingeing about what they would do for us, if only were went back to being dainty and ladyylike, flirty and obedient, but when we were like that, they treated us like slaves. I don't know why they don't just wind their neck in?

Answer 9

The feminist movement is about women having a say of their own lives and judgement; about being in control of their own self. Its about surviving in peace with no pressure to do something against their will. Its about human rights and dignity and demonstrating respect in a household so young women have a CHOICE.

Answer 10

I'm sorry Tera, but this argument falls into the same category as the African Americans demanding compensation for the fact that their forefathers were brought to America in slave ships!

Feminism, in its truest and intended state, is an honourable movement. But can you deny that many women act in a deplorable fashion under the guise of feminism? It is these individuals that give the movement a bad name...and it is these individuals that have raised the hackles on men's (and women's) necks...

I would suggest that if there was a genuine discussion about genuine feminism on this forum, you would see far less trolling and more rational conversation. But if you scroll through many questions, you will find irresponsible and disrespectful commenting by women, all in the name of feminism. And quite frankly, THEY are far more offensive to me than the rantings of any troll!

EDIT: Yes, it is a whole new debate. At some point, people have to stop looking to the past as excuse for their behaviour. Especially when it has nothing to do with their present lives. People expecting 'handouts' does nothing to further a society. The question of native Americans is an interesting one. As a Canadian, I have seen the decimation of a race of people based upon their 'special treatment'. They live on reserves, do not pay taxes and simply don't comply with the law of the land. At some point, we all have to look at our lives with a clean slate and take responsibility for ourselves....not blaming the actions of forefathers for a plight today. The same is valid for women...I realize that we lived in a patriarchal society through much of history, but that is not the life we have today. Blaming the past for our present situation does nothing to further our cause or help us. And to be fair, the world we presently live in and enjoy - commerce, transportation, business - was all built by that patriarchal society. I, for one, am very grateful to men for the life I now enjoy. The fact that it was built by men does not irritate me, or the fact that women were not permitted to participate has no bearing. There is no telling what women could have accomplished if given the opportunity back then...but that is the past. Lets move forward and make the world the best possible place we can live in with the opportunities available at present!