Another Myth exposed! Michael Jordan never "Made his teamates better"?

Question

One theory was that Jordan drew so much defensive attention that his teammates got to take wide open shots and benefited from Jordan. It sounds good on paper, but wasn't true in reality. Jordan played in 1993 and retired in 1994. Nine players played on these two teams, and these 9 players, as a whole, shot a higher percentage without Jordan than they did with Jordan, even though the defenses were focusing on them. This was not a fluke. this occurred over the course of 164 games. That is enough to determine a trend.

Furthermore, this was proven again in 2001, when Jordan joined Washington. Jordan missed a lot of games due to injury, and The Sporting News commented on their surprise that the Wizards shot better in games in which Jordan did not play. This is no surprise. This is a trend.

Doug Collins tried to put Jordan at the point guard in 1989. The idea was that Jordan was such a tremendous penetrator, that he could break down a defense and hit the open man or score. Jordan responded with 11 triple doubles in his first 13 games. However, he was often found going to the scorers' table to check to see how many rebounds or assists he needed to get a triple-double. He played for stats. Doug Collins later said, "Do you know who's the biggest obstacle to us running? Michael Jordan, that's who. He won't let go of the ball."

This selfishness resulted in players standing around and watching Jordan, or Jordan not passing to the open guy with the best shot. Without Jordan, the teams flowed into their offense and found the open man. That is why they consistently shoot better when Jordan doesn't play. Jordan simply does not make his teammates better.

Scottie Pippen – The press love to sing long songs about Jordan made Pippen. However, their songs are missing a few verses. For example. Why did Pippen have his finest seasons without Jordan? In 1994, Pippen averaged 22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, and 5.6 apg. In 1995, Pippen became only the second player in history (Dave Cowens was the first) to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. How could he do this without Jordan to make him better?
Furthermore, when deciding to retire, Jordan said over and over that he would not play without Pippen. While recovering from foot
surgery in December of 1997, Pippen said that he was not going to play with the Bulls when he was fully recovered. Jordan said that if he had known this, he would not have come back. Why? If Jordan makes everyone so much better, why not fill in Scott Burrell into Pippen’s position (or Toni Kukoc, for that matter), and make another Pippen? Answer: Jordan didn’t make Pippen. Pippen made Pippen.

The typical Jordan fan will respond with "how many championships did Pippen win without Jordan?" The answer is zero. Likewise, how many championships did Jordan win without Pippen? Zero. Comparing these two players apart from each is very unfavorable for Jordan. Pippen had a better career record and a better post-season record than Jordan. Jordan played 5 seasons without Pippen. Out of those 5 seasons, he posted 5 losing records, missed the playoffs twice, and was 1-9 in the playoffs.
Think about it: Jordan never had a winning record apart from Pippen. Pippen played on many playoff teams in Portland and Houston without Jordan.

It makes you wonder who made who a better ball player, or at least who was the most valuable player to the win-loss column.

Dennis Rodman – Rodman had established himself LONG before playing with Jordan. His defensive reputation was made in Detroit, where he was voted the Defensive Player of the Year in 1990 and 91. His rebounding ability was established in Detroit, also, where he won the first of his seven consecutive rebounding titles (4 without Jordan), and his reputation as a winner was established in Detroit, where he won two titles – both times defeating Jordan’s Bulls.

Luc Longley – Put simply, Longley was a bad player before he joined the Bulls. He was a bad player when he played with the Bulls, and he was a bad player after he left the Bulls. Nobody has questioned Jason Kidd’s ability to improve his teammates, and even he hasn’t been able to coax out respectable play from Longley. If seven points and 5 rebounds is what you want out of your center, then Longley is your man, but you don’t need Jordan to get this out of him.
If 7 points and 5 rebounds per game is your shining example of Jordan making someone better, than Jordan sucked at improving those around him. He improved Longley from a laughable joke to a mildly amusing joke. Wow!

bd........I like to hear myself type!...lol...
and I like to heard the sheep!.....
ARROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Damn! sheep!...How long does it take for you guy's to read a paragraph?....

It Takes a whole 30seconds to read it!..
jeez.....America is always in a Rush!

Ozzyballz - Jordan was not the leader of the 82 UNC team..Worthy was...Worthy was the Final Four MOP....not Jordan!
Worthy made the game winning steal in the Title Game!.....what did Jordan do as the leader of UNC?.....he only played for Himself..his teams choked every year he was the leader!...a #1 seed with 4 NBA players....and they lost in the Sweet 16 ...lol....if only Pippen was there to save him!

PS:...listen to MYKill?......go here..
> AirJudden.com

Answer 1

1. Jordan is not the GREATEST.
2. Kobe is a pale imitation of Jordan.
3. James Worthy is the one who carried UNC to an NCAA championship in 1982 not Jordan. It was Worthy's crucial steal that sealed the win for UNC. You call Jordan's shot with 16sec. on the clock a "game winner"?
4. Despite having great teammates, a great coach, a number one ranking and All American awards for himself, Jordan never lead UNC to the Final Four in 1983 and 1984.
5. Prior to the 1992 Barcelona Olympics, pros were not allowed to play in the Olympics which is why Jordan have more than one Gold medal.
6. A-Wolf is not making things up. He's copying everything from AirJudden's website.

Answer 2

Lets have it this way. Put Jordan on the 99-00 Blazers instead of Pippen, and Also put Pippen on the 01-02 and 02-03 Wizards team instead of Jordan.

- See The 99-00 Blazers team rosters with the addition of Jordan

*D. Stoudamire
*M. Jordan
*A. Sabonis
*S. Smith
*R. Wallace
*B. Wells
*D. Schrempf
*B. Grant
*J. O'Neal
*G. Anthony
*S. Augmon
*A. Harvey

Will it be the best team of that year?
Yes! With the best supporting cast Jordan have, it is even capable of beating the Lakers in the Conference Finals and win a championship against the Pacers.

- Look at the 01-02 Wizards team rosters with the addition of Pippen

*C. Laettner
*S. Pippen
*B. Haywood
*J. Stackhouse
*L. Hughes
*B. Russell
*T. Lue
*K. Brown
*E. Thomas
*J. White
*B. Simmons

can they go to the playoff?
Don't think so! coz Pippen have less supporting cast.

BTW, the 96 Bulls was the Best all time team WHY?
Because they have Superman (Michael Jordan), Batman (Scottie Pippen) and Rodman (Dennis Rodman) with roles players like Ron Harper, Steve Kerr, Toni Kukoc, Luc Longley, Bill Wennington, John Salley, Randy Brown, Jason Caffey, Dickey Simpkins and Jud Buechler. The Bulls shattered record for most wins in a regular season with 72 -10 ... And won 87 of 100 games, including the playoffs that featured triangle offense at its best...Started season an amazing 41-3...Jordan's first full season since returning from retirement.

This only means that you can't win by yourself but you can with the help of others.

Answer 3

Jordan was the unquestioned leader of the 6 Bulls championship teams. Not Pippen.
Sometimes, it is not about stats. MJ just has many intangibles that let his team come out on top. How many games did MJ just take over and will the Bulls to win? I am not a Bulls fan, but I have seen too many games where MJ just put the team on his back and carried them to victory. Some samples:
In Utah vs Bulls game 6, 1998 - with the Bulls down 3, Jordan goes for a tough contested layup, then strips Karl Malone on the other end, and makes the game winning shot.
In Jazz vs Bulls game 5, Jordan battled the flu, rallied the Bulls back, scored 30+ and hit the game winner.
There are probably 50++ games in his career where he simply took over and won the game for his team.

Answer 4

I agree with you to some degree. Jordan was a ball hog and did play for stats ion 1989. Every young player does. Jordan made his teammates better because he instilled confidence in them. He provided the ideal work ethic in practice that filters down the roster. Doug Collins was also quoted saying that he never had to talk about work ethic because Jordan always brought it, and therefore the entire team would work like Jordan did.

It's hard to argue that Jordan's teammates played better in 93 and 94, one glaring point is that they never made it very far into the playoffs. They were lacking the swagger and confidence and the winning mentality that Jordan always provided.

Dennis Rodman was a loose cannon. Terrible attitude which is why The spurs and the PIstons let him go. He was a great player and everyone knew what he brings to the game but his behavior was such a huge problem. Jordan however, was able to get rodman to play basketball at an even higher level, yet behave off the court. Ofcousre it wasn't just Jordan, Coach Phil had an impact as well.

When Pippen played the Lakers as a Blazer, he was indeed the best player on the team. I felt that that Blazer team was so well balanced and so talented that they were a lock to win it all. However, they chocked and they chocked badly. Despite being the better team on paper, they chocked because Pippen (one of the greatest defensive players of all time) chocked a couple times on defense. As the teams best player, leader, and veteran, he failed to gather his team instill the nessecary confidence and killer instinct. He couldnt get Rasheed Wallace (loose cannon like rodman) to keep his emotions in check. I ould list many more reasons but a Pippen led team chocked, as the better team too.

Answer 5

DOES ANYONE EVEN SEE THIS!!!!????

In all of Alpha's long rants about "Jordan sucks this" or "Jordan sucks that" hasn't shown us a proof of evidence of this B.S. he is feeding us is true!
He wastes an entire 5 minutes of our lives reading how Jordan fans are incorrect when they say Pippen won nothing without Jordan and vice versa. ALPHA, YOU FORGETTING THE 1982 CHAMPIONSHIP HE WON AT UNC! Where was Pippen on that one?
Yes Pippen had a STANDOUT year when Jordan left, but that's because the offense was then surrounding around him! Jordan was the offense, now that he's gone, someone has to step up! What a moron you are Alpha! Of course someone's stats are going to go up when they become the center of the offense!
Honestly do you have mental problems? I am concerned. Making up stats does not change America's mind that Jordan is the greatest of all time. Only stat that matters, that is not made up, and I know you love it, is that he has 6 rings (not to mention 2 gold medals from L.A. and Barcelona in the '84 and '92 olympics, respectively)

Answer 6

Alpha Wolf, you're right on. 100% correct. Pippen made Pippen. Pippen also made Jordan better his last 3 years with the Bulls. Pippen came closer to winning a ring without Jordan.....(5 minutes away from being the favorites and having homecourt advantage against the Indiana Pacers in the 2000 NBA Finals) than Jordan (1 win in the 1st round of the '85 playoffs against the Milwaukee Bucks) did without Pippen.

Before the naysayers claim Portland had other good players.... none of Portland's second best players ...(Pippen was leading Portland in scoring and assist during the 2000 NBA playoffs & their best player)... were as good as Orlando Woolridge, the Bulls 2nd best in '85.

Answer 7

What, War & Peace wasn't long enough for ya?

First of all, Pippen couldn't play offense in the half-court to save his life. He was great on the break, subpar otherwise. Of course his defense was spectacular, that's for sure.

Washington vs Chicago is apples & oranges. In Washington, the whole team had to dramatically adjust to try & accomodate Jordan's presence on the floor- because he was a newcomer, he was the odd piece trying to be fitted in to their existing offensive flow.

The ways in which he made his teammates better had less to do with shooting percentage (ocassionally having him out there created easy shots, but not always) than with focus and playing hard. When MJ was there, players hustled more, and played smarter. His being there motivated them in ways that many other superstars don't. His former teammates have reiterated this, time and again.

Answer 8

Sounds to me like you are arguing that Pippen was better than Jordan. Put Jordan on the 99-00 Blazers instead of Pippen, and try to comprehend how they wouldn't win a championship. Check out this roster (minus Pip).

Arvydas Sabonis C
Rasheed Wallace PF
Bonzi Wells SG
Damon Stoudamire PG
Stacey Augmon SF
Steve Smith SG
Greg Anthony PG
Jermaine O'Neal C
Detlef Schrempf SF

Add Jordan to that, and you're looking at a starting 5 of Sabonis, Wallace, Schrempf, Jordan and Stoudamire. That would be the best team he ever played on, and he has 6 rings.

If Pippen made people so much better, why didn't he get a 7th ring in 2000?

If I were a basketball player, and I wanted to have fun playing the game, and feel like I was involved, I'd want to be on Pippen's team. If I flat-out wanted to win, I'd have to take Jordan.

Their numbers without each other are a little skewed. Pippen never played for a team as bad as the teams in MJ's early days. Also, MJ played 2 seasons too long. Match up the rosters from Jordan's Bulls without Pippen and Wizards to Pippen's Bulls without Jordan, Blazers and Rockets. Now assume for argument's sake that Jordan and Pippen are equal, and take both guys off the rosters. The Pippen teams are going to win without Pippen. Jordan played on more bad teams, not because he couldn't make his teammates better, but because his teams had no talent.

Answer 9

I just don't understand how you are a top contributor when you don't know anything about basketball. Michael Jordan was the best ever and nothing you say can make people believe otherwise. Your other comments are a joke too. Jordan made his teammates better by involving them so what if they shot a little better without him probably because they had more shots too take.

Answer 10

Everyone with a brain knows that Jordan was a product of media/marketing hype. Hell, you weren't even allowed to guard the guy! Not to mention he was given five steps on the way to the basket. He gained more yards than Barry Sanders! Now if you would just get off Kobe's nuts and acknowledge Larry Bird as the greatest player, the world would be fine once again.