Is Clemente over-rated?

Question

Let me begin by saying I think he was a great player and that all the evidence suggest he is arguably the finest defensive right fielder of all time.
But I have read and heard people suggest that he was the finest right fielder overall of his day or even of all time. Have they forgotten about Aaron and Frank Robinson (or Mel Ott or Babe Ruth)? Some people said it was an outrage that he was left off the all-century team.
But he is not in the top 100 all-time in on-base percentage or slugging average or home runs or OPS or OPS+…he is #66 in Runs Created, #78 in runs scored, and #38 in total bases.
Several right fielders place much higher.

And don’t forget that these guys were not defensive slouches, either. But even a great right fielder only saves a handful of runs a year compared to an average one.

A great player, yes, and certainly worthy of the Hall of Fame. He might have been an even better man off the field.

But I think his playing has been over-rated.

Calm down, folks. I don't think I didn't say he wasn't great. But I am dealing with those who think he was #1. In that situation, to not be over-rated, you have to be able to argue that he was better than Aaron, Robinson, Ott, and Ruth--that's the minimum group he has to beat. That, or you have to have about a dozen out-fielders on the All-Century Team.

And, ryboyin, here's my sources:

I don't think I didn't say he wasn't great. But to not be over-rated, you have to be able to argue that he was better than Aaron, Robinson, Ott, and Ruth--that's the minimum group he has to beat. That, or you have to have about a dozen out-fielders on the All-Century Team.

Okay, ryboyin, here's my sources:
By The Numbers: The Legend of Clemente (http://www.columbian.com/sports/localNews/08042007news178412.cfm)
baseball-reference.com
mlb.com
Bill James Historical Baseball Abstracts

You might want to do some research of your own and try proof-reading before you call me stupid.

Another quick note--OPS+ measures a player in the context of his time; Clemente's numbers there are not impressive. He played at essentially the same time as Aaron and Robinson, yet their numbers are vastly superior. And he would have added to his hit totals, but many of the numbers based on averages would have likely gone down after 18 seasons.

Oh, and players like Lefty Gomez and Minnie Minoso were Latino stars well before Clemente.

Answer 1

Let me state right at the top: Roberto Clemente was a great player, one of the 100 best ever. However, I do believe he is overrated. Dying while performing a selfless, humanitarian act tends to blur out any negatives. How he died shouldn't be forgotten, but it also shouldn't overshadow the truth about him as a ballplayer.

The fact is that he was an impatient hitter. He walked only 621 times in over 10,000 plate appearances. Of the top 50 players in career at bats, he ranks 45th in walks. That is significant. His on base percentage, a far more meaningful stat than batting average, was .359 - the same as Eric Davis, Jay Buhner and about a dozen other guys. I'm not suggesting Davis or Buhner were Clemente's equal, but .359 isn't among the top 200 in history.

Now if he supplemented that shortcoming with power and/or runs scored that would be helpful in supporting an argument about where he should rank among right fielders. But the fact is he had decent power, not great. He scored a decent amount of runs for someone with a career of his length, but not a great total. Yes, he could hit and his batting average, especially for his era, was terrific. But he was not a complete offensive force. At least not enough to rank him higher than at least half a dozen other right fielders.

Fielding? No doubt, he was a great fielder. He had an arm that was among the most feared of all time. He also made his fair share of errors. Henry Aaron, in 865 more games, made only 2 errors more than Clemente. The real question is how many runs does a right fielder's great defense save during a season? It's hard to gauge, but it's certainly not enough to offset the superior run production of players like Ruth, Aaron, Frank Robinson and others who were better all around players than Clemente.

One final observation: People have forgotten that he was somewhat difficult to deal with. There were times his desire to play injured was questioned. This doesn't mean he wasn't too injured to play, but it is important to remember these questions swirled around him for his entire career. To some folks it may appear unseemly to say these things now, again because of his heroic death. This isn't intended to bash him, just to put everything into proper perspective.

Once again, he was a great player. But I agree with you, he has been overrated.

Answer 2

I don't think he's really overrated, but I do think people get carried away when they include him in a list of the top 10-20 players of all-time, which I've seen many times on here. Realistically, he should probably rank somewhere between 75-100.

All of the right fielders you mentioned - Ruth, Aaron, Robinson and Ott - are far superior to Clemente. Unfortunately, people get hung on numbers like his 3,000 hits, while not paying much attention to a guy like Mel Ott who ranks in the top 25 in both runs created and OPS+. The problem, in many cases, is that most fans don't really understand what is measured by some of the newer stats.

Your point about defense is well-taken. That's another problem when people talk about Clemente, that they overestimate his value in the field. I'd take a replacement-level fielder who can pound the ball over a weak hitting Gold Glover any day because of their relative value, but I think many people believe that great fielders save tons of runs every season. Not that Clemente was anywhere close to a weak hitter, but my point is that you're definitely right when it comes to overvaluing D. And Ruth/Ott/Robinson weren't exactly Jose Canseco in the field.

Clemente was a great man, and a pioneer. He was a terrific fielder and very good hitter for average. However, I do believe that he's been mythologized more than a little. He's a deserving HOFer, but I wouldn't have him anywhere near the top 20 players of all-time.

Answer 3

I have questions for the answerers, if that's allowed.
The Mick--you saw Babe Ruth and Mel Ott play? You're pretty internet savvy for an old guy!
Gene H—some of his team-mates said he mostly lead by example. But two World Series titles in 18 years, while good, doesn’t exactly put him up there with Yogi Berra.
sgoldperson—Clemente entered the majors in 1955. Minnie Minoso entered in 1949, Cuban Dolf Luque was playing in 1912…how do you get credit as a “pioneer” 40 some years after Latinos had made the Bigs?
artistctrophy—Yes, baseball is full of stories, not just numbers. But Hank Aaron isn’t a good story, too? Ruth isn’t? If you’re asking to rate somebody, shouldn’t numbers—especially in baseball—be in there somewhere? Or do you have special system to rate Excitement Points Over Average?
And Bucky, where exactly are these hordes of people over-rating Clemente and saying he’s better than your top four? Oh, wait, some of them seem to be here.

Answer 4

Defensively there was no one better. I'm old enough to have seen all of the players you've mentioned and believe me when I tell you that he covered right field better than anyone in history. I would also say that Dwight Evans was also one of the top five right fielders of all time. Both Clemente and Evans had two of the three greatest throwing arms in baseball history. The third was Roger Maris. The worse thing that ever happened to Maris was breaking Ruth's home run record. No matter what he did after that paled to his 61 home runs. Talk about great right fielders, he had maybe the greatest throwing arm of them all.

Answer 5

Once again, a fan that puts all his faith in statistics. Yes, statistically Clemente is not up there with a Ruth, but who is? In order to understand statistics completely, you must look at them in the time and the circumstances in which they occured. A good part of Clemente's more productive years were played during a time when pitching bean to dominate, so much so that the mound was lowered after the 1968 season. (For example, look at the batting averages for the leagues in the 60's - Yaz won a batting title hitting .301 in 1968.) Also, Clemente would have spent the first 15 seasons playing in Forbes Field, a notorious pitches park with a lot of foul ground and deep fences. Some people say that he probably would have been a 500 home run hitter had he played in just about any other park.
I can tell you that, having seen Clemente play in person probably 10 or 12 times, that he was always exciting as hell to watch. He always hustled, and I never once saw him make a mental mistake. Were there greater players then him?Definitely. Were there players with better statistics then him?Obviously. But for simply creating excitement on a ballfield, I think there was never anyone better then him. I'd suggest you look at baseball as more then just a set of numbers, and perhaps try to be informed about the stories behind the players, not just their statistics. There are too many variables in baseball, way more then any other sport, to judge it solely on the numbers.

Answer 6

The players who played concurrently with him rank him as one of the best and that says alot.

Willie Mays said he'd put himself, Aaron and Clemente as the best outfield of his era, and that says alot.

Probably the best defensive right fielder of all time. 3,000 hits. It's hard to overrate someone like that.

And he was a great man off the field. Died flying medical supplies to the city of Managua after a devastating earthquake. The MLB annual award for humanitarian service is named after him. There are dozens of youth baseball fields named after him in is native Puerto Rico and he is a roll model. I drive to work each day on Roberto Clemete Drive in Pittsburgh. When I go to Pirates games, I walk across the Roberto Clemente Bridge. I feel honored to do so.

Maybe he gains points in people's minds from a halo effect - because of the way he lived and the manner in which he died. Maybe people think he was an even better ballpllayer than he was because he was such a great human being.

You know what - I can live with that.

Answer 7

Actually one of the biggest reasons he belongs in the Hall of Fame is that he broke the Barrier for all those Latinos that are in MLB now. The way he was treated didn't help any. Also some of these things I question about your comments. You have to factor in the amount of games Roberto played if you want to talk about how much higher some players rank. One last note about why he belongs in the HoF. When he was playing 3,000 hits meant something. I'd guess everyone from that time with 3,000 hits would be in the HoF. Well if everyone else was then why wouldn't he be.

Answer 8

He is the best right fielder of all time. Look at the stats #1 New York Yankees posted that says it all. I love Clemente. He is one of my favorite players of all-time. Yes Ruth Robinson and Aaron were great but Clemente in my opinion was a better player. Cannon Arm-The best of all time- 3,000 hits and World Series Rings Plus an MVP. People talk about how good Tori Hunter is defensively well watch some reruns of Clemente and his gun and you'll think Hunter is a high school player. I salute Clemente

Answer 9

One of the things that bothers me is that people hate Barry Bonds and talk about him all the time. Roberto Clemente was everything Bonds is not. He LEAD, he was a spectacular play maker, he had a great personality, and he was whatever the opposite of jerk is. So why not acknowledge POSITIVE people like him, and current players as well. Derek Jeter is one I can think of.
Considering the MAN, when I look at the stats, Clemente is UNDER-rated, if anything.

Answer 10

I never hear people even TALK about him to this day.

He was a great man, and I can even describe how cool he was.

In my book he is in the top 10 Right Fielders of all time list.

Well, maybe his playing was overrated at times, but lets look at the stats,

3,000 hits

.317 career batting average

At age 38 he hit .312,

NL M.V.P.,

Former Babe Ruth and World Series MVP Winner,

12 time All Star,

A GREAT man,

12 gold gloves,

Lead the league in batting average four times,

Lead the league in hits twice,

Lead the league in triples once,

Lead the league in Intentinol Walks once,

Struck out olny 1,230 times in his career,

1,416 Runs,

1,305 R.B.I.'s,

.359 OBP,

TB 4,492 times in his career,

Pittsburgh Pirates Career Leader in Games (Shares with Honus Wagner), At Bats, Hits, Total Bases, Singles.

Two World Series rings.

Wow. I take that back.

He is not overrated, hes UNDERRATED.