Do you see obstacles or opportunities?

Question

I recently had to fire a salesperson who could not make her numbers. She was given every opportunity. But, she literally could not see opportunities, she only saw the obstacles and got in her own way.

Feminism seems to be that way to me. Since a young woman today (in the US at least) has the oppotunity to accomplish literally everything a young man can -- why do feminists focus only on the percieved obstacles rather than encouraging young women to see the possiblities and opportunities and go after them?

Do you not agree that one reason young women have no interest in feminism (among others) is that they do see the many opportunities they have and would rather go after them than micro-analyze the pebbles in the road?

Friends

I am basing my assertion on the literally hundreds of answers I have read where feminists have highlighted what they perceived as issues and obstacles faced exclusively by women that the average woman does not even give a second thought to. She sees it just as a man would.

Perfect example of perceiving an obstacle where clearly there was/is an opportunity is Bluestareyed. Her perception is that she was paid less *because* of being a woman.

If a man is paid less than other men, is it because he is a man, or because he did not seize the opportunity to demand more or find another job?

Bluestareyed, saw a perceived obstacle, not the opportunity. That may've had nothing to do with being a woman. Millions of men feel they're underpaid too. It is all about perception. You can see what you want to see.

Baba Yaga -

I invested 10s of Ks of dollars in this woman only to be disappointed. We spent weeks analyzing the problem until it became painfully clear. By contrast, I close more business faster because I do not FOCUS on the obstacles and don't assume they have my name on them.

It realized that I have seen that exact same thinking pattern in reading hundreds of feminist A's here. Magnifying obstacles and making the *assumption* that they are due to discrimination and outside of a woman's own control, rather than within her control.

An example is how NOW argues the "wage gap". Despite tons of evidence that women can make different choices to increase their income, NOW insists that the *only* cause of the average wage gap is discrimination and women are therefore powerless to make different choices in work.

THAT is stopping to analyze a pebble in the road rather than saying, "girl, drive over that thing." My daughters will drive over the pebbles.

Bluestareyed

I apologize if I offended. I only used your example since you mentioned it yourself. No offense intended. Your boss has his rationale and you did what anyone who feels that they are underpaid should do. Find another job. Or, you could have carried the heavy stuff also and demanded a raise.

Further, there are many managers who make less then subordinates. The person I just fired earned more than me. Bad investment though.

Girly M– is that you?? (I just can’t call you that other name! LOL But, we’re still cool)

I don’t walk in female shoes, but did buy a pair today. Or at least paid for them.

Though I’m not female, I am surrounded by them and care deeply about quite a few -- especially the ones who share my name and live with me, including 2 who they say “look just like their dad.” Not to mention having 4 sisters to whom I am very close. I really do not think that I am out of touch with the female experience.
As an example. NOW has no programs to educate women on career choice, salary negotiation, and the impact of taking months or years off of work. They attribute the 100% of the gap to discrimination. They have many programs that contend that young women that they *will* earn $0.77 to each dollar a man earns, no matter what they do. The point is, there are things that individual women CAN do to earn just as much as any man, but they would have you believe that it is not possible.

This is just one example (IMO) of a feminist organization magnifying a perceived obstacle rather than helping women (as I absolutely do with my girls) to see that they have every opportunity a male does. SHE has the power.

Wendy G

I don't totally disagree with you. But, this IS 2007. And in the US there have been legal protections in place to prevent anyone from being discriminated against for some time.

Women, in fact, in some circumstances even more legal protections than do men.

So, why not use the level playing field and "make it happen." What is the government and businesses doing for men that they aren't doing for women?

Allegra (I like that name much better) -- As much as we have locked horns, I don't totally disagree with you. The opportunity is what a person choses to make of it. To live whatever they define as a decent life.

I am from the inner city and have probably seen first hand things you may not have. I road to school every day of high school in a bus filled with marijuana smoke. Every day for 4 years. I know that some have more opportunities than others. And that is far, far more related to race, economics, and life circumstance than sex.

And to be clear, I absolutely, positively do not equate the quality of life with money or material things. I run a business so that I can control my life, not get rich.

I am not aware of what you refer to in the Sudan but nothing would surprise me about what *any* government in the world would do. You will not find truly clean hands among those in power anywhere on earth.

Bluestareyed -

I believe you are assuming that the pay difference was because of your sex. A man may very well have been paid the same if he were willing to work for the same.

Nonetheless, you did what anyone, male or female should do if they feel they are not being paid fairly - quit and find another job.

Answer 1

Indeed. Many of us enjoy "'micro-analyzing' the pebbles along the road," rather than going about our lives blissfully unaware of the way things look outside the backyard - like most Americans today.

And, so, what do we mean by "opportunity"? The opportunity to spend our lives accumulating money? The opportunity to sell products for some company we couldn't give a s.hit about (not only your company)? The opportunity to go home every night and watch the "news," which fails to mention that the U.S.-backed dictator of the Sudan, for one of many examples, is slaughtering his own people using U.S. and European-acquired weapons, or that some hundreds more U.S. workers just lost their jobs because the work done by Asians and Mexicans is, for some reason, worth less money than the same work done by white Americans?

I'll forego some of those "opportunities," thanks.
___________

Feel free to substitute "Christian male" for "white."

"But, all that said, I know I did not get where I am by merit alone. I benefited from, among other things, white privilege. That doesn't mean that I don't deserve my job, or that if I weren't white I would never have gotten the job. It means simply that all through my life, I have soaked up benefits for being white. I grew up in fertile farm country taken by force from non-white indigenous people. I was educated in a well-funded, virtually all-white public school system in which I learned that white people like me made this country great. There I also was taught a variety of skills, including how to take standardized tests written by and for white people. ...

There certainly is individual variation in experience. Some white people have had it easier than me, probably because they came from wealthy families that gave them even more privilege. Some white people have had it tougher than me because they came from poorer families. White women face discrimination I will never know. But, in the end, white people all have drawn on white privilege somewhere in their lives.

Like anyone, I have overcome certain hardships in my life. I have worked hard to get where I am, and I work hard to stay there. But to feel good about myself and my work, I do not have to believe that "merit," as defined by white people in a white country, alone got me here. I can acknowledge that in addition to all that hard work, I got a significant boost from white privilege, which continues to protect me every day of my life from certain hardships.

At one time in my life, I would not have been able to say that, because I needed to believe that my success in life was due solely to my individual talent and effort. I saw myself as the heroic American, the rugged individualist. I was so deeply seduced by the culture's mythology that I couldn't see the fear that was binding me to those myths. Like all white Americans, I was living with the fear that maybe I didn't really deserve my success, that maybe luck and privilege had more to do with it than brains and hard work. I was afraid I wasn't heroic or rugged, that I wasn't special.

I let go of some of that fear when I realized that, indeed, I wasn't special, but that I was still me. What I do well, I still can take pride in, even when I know that the rules under which I work in are stacked in my benefit. I believe that until we let go of the fiction that people have complete control over their fate--that we can will ourselves to be anything we choose--then we will live with that fear. Yes, we should all dream big and pursue our dreams and not let anyone or anything stop us. But we all are the product both of what we will ourselves to be and what the society in which we live lets us be" (http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/whiteprivilege.htm ).

Answer 2

This depends. I recently had the "opportunity" to fall off the roof of my house while trying to do some repairs. Some obstacles, such as holes in hard to reach places are more an annoyance than an opportunity. So I guess that since not all obstacles can be an (for good) opportunity, again, I think it depends on what it is.

Answer 3

Jeez, man, you fired a person who you perceived couldn't sell. I think just about everyone under pressure at work in danger of being fired comes up with the reasons they weren't able to perform.

Not everything that happens to you is an opportunity to take on feminism.

A good salesman like yourself doesn't automatically mean you'd be a good sales manager. Management is different. You may have tried to coach her but coaching may not be your forte. Judging by all the generalizations in your posting, I'd say there's a very good chance you may not be up to the job. If it were your wife or daughter, would you have done more? Would you have cut them some slack?

She's better off without you. Perhaps you can bring in a family member to whom you would have a true commitment.

Answer 4

I think I know what you're talking about. The people that always have an excuse for why they can't do their job, or be better parents, or be better people... it's never their fault.
But I disagree that feminism is like this. Feminism seeks to raise awareness about women's issues, not use them as excuses.
And FEMINISM is what gave young women those opportunities in the first place...thereby encouraging them to go after them.
It's feminism that first put forth the idea that women could pursue whatever dreams they had. There was a time before feminism that women COULD NOT pursue certain avenues...feminism changed that.
Instead of sitting back and whining about their obstacles, feminists got up and did something about it, gaining the right to vote, putting forth legislation to allow women equal opportunity in the workforce, and equal pay, changing perceptions of women and their abilities.
That's why I'm a feminist.

Answer 5

I worry about the obstacles when they actually hit me in the face. I wasnt worried about equal pay for equal work until i was in a position where i was doing more work than the men i worked with and getting paid less. I knew but didnt worry about birth control being withheld by overzealous pharmacists until I moved out west and had it happen to me.

Most feminists that i know, myselfg included do everyhting we can to encourage girtls and women to take every opportunity they have. When those girls and women, as individuals hit the true oibstacles, we help them.

so no. i dont think so. I think that you are basing this off of an assumption of what feminism is and how feminists operate. I think those very same assumptions are the reasons that some young women avoid feminism.

excuse me. I was the manager OVER the males in this instance and they were still getting raises while i wasnt. I was also the ONLY female working there. I was given responsibility over them to make sure they did their jobs, and when they wouldnt, I would do it to be sure it got done. My boss' reason for not giving me a raise? "the boys do more heavy lifting than you." This is despite the fact that I was running the box office, restocking the concession stand, doing inventory, and doing all of the checks of the lobby and the theatre while they stood around the concession stand eatting popcorn and trading drinking party stories. Because of this i quit and found a better job, but i was indeed told, to my face, that i was expected to do all that work because the boys had to bring up a fifty pound bag of popcorn from the basement once a week.

DO NOT try to make an example of my life and experiences when you know nothing about them.

edit yet again: after i was told that about the lifting, I started doing it too. when things didnt change, I quit. And in sales i know that a subordinate may make more than a manager especially if there is commission involved because i am currently in commissioned sales. I was manager at a movie theatre. the same rules dont quite apply.

i do appreciate your apology though.

Answer 6

A star for you for a very well thought-out question.

As a woman, I see the issues as obstacles that I need to remove. They are the barriers that keep me from succeeding. But the good news is that once I see them as obstacles, then I have the opportunity to look at what these obstacles are and find out what is in my path and how I can remove these obstacles.

Personally, I hate it when someone euphemistically uses the phrase, "here are some wonderful opportunities for you" when they really are barriers. I'd rather have them stated as barriers. Then, it's up to me to determine what resources I need to eliminate those barriers. Is it a case that I need to devote more time, do I need additional training, is it just a case of focusing or in how I view the issue, or do I need some help to remove those obstacles.

Obstacles do not need to be an immovable object, but we do need to look at the obstacles and find out if it is possible to eliminate the obstacle, go around it, or to move it.

Answer 7

Why do they see obstacles?Well,it is probably because they are there.Sure there are exceptions,but as a rule there is still discrimination of women in the job market and the work place.You may have a valid point in this one case,but it has been my experience that women (in most cases) put forth more effort than men with the same job.

Answer 8

Your saleswoman did not make her numbers because all she looked at were the obstacles. Being in sales can be difficult because you always have to project a positive attitude. The best way to do this is to HAVE a positive attitude.

Feminism is much the same; you will achieve anything you set out to do if you take a positive attitude along with the aptitude.

Like Baba Yaga, I disagree with your assertion about feminism. Feminism is about trying to achieve anything you have the desire to do. When will you realize that feminism is not about ball busting; it is about having the same opportunities that men have? Feminists do not believe that to achieve great things you need to cut men off at the knees to do so.

Feminism is about equality. Period.

Answer 9

If this individual saw only obstacles and you had to fire her because she wasn't making her numbers, how did you get from there to another criticism of feminism?

Your perception is skewed. Feminism DOES and always has encouraged young women to think they can accomplish literally everything a young man can - that's why so many of them say "I'm not a feminist but" because they don't think it's necessary, so I would agree with that part of your question. Chalk one up for feminism. Well-brought-up young men and women should think their futures are filled with endless possibilities.

Feminism doesn't "micro-analyze the pebbles in the road," but hey, if you want to think that, go right ahead. I'm too pre-occupied looking at the stars.

Answer 10

I would say that most feminists don't spend most of their time concentrating on obstacles. Most might if they've just experienced something very discriminatory, but they'll get back on with being happy, but more vigilant than non-feminists. Today, in the west, if a feminist is concentrating mostly on obstacles, she's misled and/or has a lot of work to do on her own personal problems.

Answer 11

what makes you think the situation you described is indicitive of the general attitude of women ?, couldnt this just as easily have been a man you had to fire ? Im a guy and have seen plenty of men who fail to see opportunities.