Do you want to know what's REALLY affecting income stats?

Question

It's the statistical effect of importing millions of poor people.

And please don't reply that either Samuelson or Newsweek are conservative sources - they're not.

An economist that is political but centrist, in a firmly left-of-center newsmagazine, analyzing the same stats I've been giving you for months, and coming to the same conclusion.

It doesn't get any clearer than this.

Immigrants, legal and illegal, are generally very poor, and they come here and have babies. In addition to the dramatic increase in illegal immigrations from poor countries over the last five and twenty five years, the trend in legal immigration is toward immigration from poorer countries.

When you import that many people at the bottom, it affects the bottom, the average and the median.

Samuelson also gets into changes in household size and the effect on the median. I'm a household. My ex-wife is a household. We made more together than each of us does separately. Etc....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6214022/site/newsweek/

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070821/ap_on_re_us/immigration_wages

This also shows some of the numbers - and explains why they keep coming. Over time they too move up. But the sheer numbers, the sheer concentration of these workers at the low end - - - - is significant.

And with unemployment at 4.6% it really can't be argued that they're taking work away from white American citizens on any large scale. Nor are they driving wages down - they're doing different jobs entirely.

anon nobody's "eliminating the middle class" - - - the incomes of the middle third of us are rising. Households earning between 2X and 5X the poverty level of income are leaving that group but consistently 92% of them have moved up while 8% have moved down.

There are a lot more households where both spouses work real white collar jobs and neither wants to spend the weekend cleaning the house or doing yard-work and because they're both working full-time they need someone to watch the kids after school - they hire illegals as maids, landscapers and nannies - - positions that, because the economy created enough higher-paying white collar jobs for both spouses to have one, were in turn newly-created.

It's a win win - - - - well, not necessarily for the kid, but that's another issue.

Masho it DOESN'T affect me but it affects the MEDIAN and the AVERAGE when you ADD 8% to the population, mostly at the bottom of the population!

"Americans are earning less in real income because trickle down doesn’t work."
No quest, that's not true. The median isn't rising as fast as you might think it should because we keep adding people at the bottom - - - - the people already here are doing just fine.

I don't know what you seek but the truth is in front of your nose.

cvq yes, you are correct about "the uninsured" there are NOT 45 million uninsured Americans - - - Census Bureau surveys the POPULATION - - - so the 45 million includes the 20 million illegals. The 25 million also includes grad students not on Daddy's plan, it includes some of the very rich who self-insure - - - there are a number of factors that whittle this down to more like 20 million which, out of a total population of say 290 million (exclude the illegals) is actually very good.

Beren, in some cases I'd agree with you but here it's simple math - - - the 20 million illegals don't have health insurance, that would be illegal - - that cuts the 45 million figure down to 25. Most illegals are poor. Many legal immigrants are poor. They actually have stats on their education and income levels and Samuelson goes into that.

Read the article I attached. Again - - this is Newsweek, and it's an economist who has positions on political issues but really can't be considered "right wing" or "conservative" - - - this isn't Walter Williams, this is Robert Samuelson.

Answer 1

Any reasonable person knows this but the key word is reasonable.

Answer 2

The problem with this type of analysis is in the definitions. Anybody who has ever played with histograms knows you can make it say many different things depending on how you define the frequencies. The same thing could easily be happening here.

I am not saying what it right or wrong, just saying that to blindly accept what is being said is naive. Were the definitions changed to get the expected results?

A proper statistical treatment would remove the confounding effect of illegal immigrants to see if this hypothesis is plausible. All I see is a bunch of handwaving and saying, "IT IS OBVIOUS" which is last resort of those with no proof.

Answer 3

Most of the stats on income from the IRS. Illegal immigrants don’t file income tax returns. Americans are earning less in real income because trickle down doesn’t work. The very rich have gotten a lot richer.

Answer 4

I'm not sure what your point is. Income Stats are income stats. Do the stats count less because they involve immigrants?

We are a nation of immigrants. I guess the difference between you and me is that you can separate that “stats” from the people. Perhaps it’s because I live in NYC, and have another perspective. You see poor immigrants as stats, bringing median & mean income down, weighing on your tax dollars. I see poor immigrants as people looking to make a living just like you and me. I see them as people that are the backbone of this nation and our economy throughout our history.

I guess I’m asking; so what if poor immigrants bring the stats down as you suggest?

Answer 5

Affecting income stats how? And how does that affect you? I'm not understanding what kind of point you're trying to make. There's always a bottom and a top- if the bottom rises so will the top? After all, the bottom makes the top, and the top is made of the bottom.

Answer 6

THANK YOU for the information. Also, statistics on the uninsured in America include illegals.

Will America ever get a handle on this problem? I hope so. I fear not.

Answer 7

You are a bit wrong.

Legal immigrants from Europe and Asia bring hardworking code, perfect education (not that puny "no child left behind"), patriarchal family values.

Illegal immigrants from Latin America bring poverty and lawlessness.

Answer 8

Your message is rambling. From President Harry Truman I learned the expression: "There are lies, damn, lies and statistics."
Income statistics are meaningless unless you collect the stats and interpret them yourself. Newspapers and news magazines take polls and use the polls to make news.

Answer 9

It is causing wages to drop and taxes to increase, but they want to eliminate the middle class and it is working.

Answer 10

All western economies need poverty..

They are all essentially "poverty dependant".