A Thousand Confirmed Dead - All China Wants is an Apology - Comments?

Question

A site in Nanjing, the capital of east China's Jiangsu Province, was recently confirmed as the place where more than 1,000 Chinese were massacred by marauding Japanese troops on December 13, 1937, Xinhua News Agency reported.

Nanjing Massacre Site Unearthed

http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/221287.htm

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The Chinese government wants an apology from Japan and for Japan to stop rewriting history, especially to their children, of what really happened in China during WWII

Peace

Jim

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According to the veterans' descriptions, on December 13, 1937 the Japanese squadron escorted more than 1,000 Chinese people shackled together to a place near Taiping Gate. The soldiers were then "ordered to kill all of them in three different ways."

First, they were ordered to blow them up using landmines. "We had buried mines in fixed places in advance, and forced the Chinese people to walk on them". Second: burn them. "Some Japanese soldiers poured gasoline on those Chinese people and set them alight". Third: stab them with bayonets.

China officially regards Mao as 30% bad and 70% good. The bad comes from his terrible policies which resulted in 60 million starving to death, to the Cultural Revolution where roving gangs of Revolutionary Guards slaughter thousands.

Yes, China has apologized for that.

As far as Tianamen, the Chinese people regard the protesters and hoodlums and they got what they deserved. I don't agree with that assessment, but I do understand why it was repressed.

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If the protests were allowed to continue, there was a real possiblity that the end result would be an overthrow of the government. What that would result in is anyone guess -- but I do believe it would be far, far worse then the image of "Tank Man."

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If it has to do with the way the Japanese apologize and the Chinese don't accept their words because they are not strong enough -- then by God, since the Japanese caused this, then they should get down on their hands and knees and apologize in the most exceptional fashion. Plus, as the Chinese have stated, tell their own people the truth in the same fashion and stop rewriting history.

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I am well aware that upwards of 300,000 people died in Nanjing. This new site adds more credibility to China's claim that for years, Japan wouldn't even admit anything happened. Now they are willing to say "something" happened. Regardless if it was 1 person, or 300,000, it was wrong then, and it is wrong now.

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Oh my god, I am quoting a Xinhua news article, in as much as many quote Reuters and AP as sources. One is state run, the other is corporate run. Both are partisan, both have agenda's and both suck.

I know, I worked in the business of news for a decade and there is not much difference.

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DS, I teach English in China and what my students have told me of Mao reflect what I have said here. I learned of Mao's failed policies that resulted in mass death from a person here in China.

I also learned of some of Mao's failures during my first tour here in 2003 from the tour guide that worked for the government.

I am not sure where you are getting your information, but China is not one of them.

Answer 1

Jim..., I really do not understand why you posted this question here (history forum).

While I've been reading the other answers, I felt like people rubbing salt on our (Chinese) wounds, bleeding wounds, they were supposed to be scars.

Well! Enjoy the freedom of speech here - 200,000 or even millions dead of whoever means nothing to those who answered as outsiders (non-Chinese) in here, it happened long time ago and it was in China - who really cares? Who's Japanese or Chinese that answered this question here till now?

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To answer your question:

What else the Chinese should ask for after 70+ years? Any other options?

Don't you think the problems in Middle East is more than enough on this planet? Why do the Chinese (1.3 billion) want to mess up Asia for revenge? Didn't the history tell us enough how bad the war was?

When the wound stop bleeding, it would recover and turn to be a scar, it would never disappear but it reminds you how did you get hurt!

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Below are my answers to some other questions about the Sino-Japanese Wars

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Ar9c1V6IylQhVjjAmN8iY3zty6IX?qid=20070707173003AAdOQjF&show=7#profile-info-ERtXN9U2aa
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AoZT2SowgmlI47FPJoRwAonty6IX?qid=20061101220850AAspbX8&show=7#profile-info-ab001a66466d74bdf59e72c8cc5ebbddaa
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Am6pdcPjuHxGdGynlx3oYmjty6IX?qid=20061108194948AASGKAu&show=7#profile-info-3289319b0eb3fc7429d2552f5a733234aa

P.S. to J Kibler

I do not agree with you!!!! Culture difference can't be a damn good excuse for rewriting history in their text books!!!!! I spent my college time in Tokyo, worked in an International Japanese firm for 5 years, I do know Japanese culture quite well because I started to read their comics and magazines since I was 8 till now. You sounded like you are not a Chinese (I guess, from your words), there is nothing in common regarding to this issue between you, the Chinese and the Japanese even though you married a Japanese woman or you speak Japanese, you never can understand how my grandparents hated Japanese nor you ever would try to understand it!

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Jim... if you are really interested in this topic, you may google the links I posted in my 2nd answer up there, 300,000 were killed in Nanjing - there was an answerer (Japanese) posted to the same question said it was a lie, the total population in Nanjing in those days was less than 200,000 and how could the Chinese government make up that dead troll! So, he thinks less 1/3 of civilians were killed in Nanjing is the fact and he has the right to sound it out loud to correct this error. Certainly, I don't see any meaning of "apology" in his words. Typical Japanese - "CULTURE"? according to what J Kibler refered..., isn't it?

I do have quite some Japanese friends apologized to me (well.. never anyone said ... "on behalf of our government" though!) when we talked about the WW2.

Indeed, since the war broke up, refugees from Shanghai, Hangzhou... etc. areas were moving to far west and rushing towards Nanjing all the way to Xian, Chongqing.., etc. How could this person know the true figure of how many civilians were there in Nanjing? As what you said, the figure doesn't matter, how they killed / raped in the past and then they now still avoid telling the truth to their young generation in their history text book is a fact and would be recorded in Chinese history books.

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By the way, Jim, have you heard of "Comfort women"? They were the Asian sex slaves kept in the Japanese Military Comfort Stations all over Asia during the WW2.

One of the reasons for establishing the comfort-station system was

- The prevention of mass rapes of civilians, which led to great difficulties in controlling local populations once they were conquered. (The tens of thousands of rapes of the women of Nanjing were a key factor in motivating military leaders to institutionalize comfort stations on such a large scale.)

For the full list of reasons and further information about "comfort women" please refer to below website.

http://www.apublicbetrayed.com/case_studies/case_study5.htm

Here are some others about "comfort women"

http://www.jpri.org/publications/critiques/critique_IX_2.html
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/55a/012.html

Answer 2

Dear Mr Jim,

I really admire and respect you for having stood by us on so many occasions. Thank you on behalf of my race even though I'm not from China. I'll answer/comment for you first. I agree wholeheartedly with Aileen2003_hk. First of all, it seems that alot of people are just rubbing salt to our injuries and quite plainly, just couldn't care less about the feelings of 1.3 billion Chinese and plenty more around the world. If one were to read most of the comments, one would almost think that they are actually implying that the Chinese deserved what they got and so they should shut their mouth instead of keep asking for an apology that is long overdue.

What the hell is wrong with all you people out there? Why are there so many people hating Chinese? Just because mainland China is a communist country? Is that a justification for people like DS to hate Chinese then? Is that also a justification that China do not deserve to receive a public apology from Japan? What if those brutally murdered are your own race of people, would you have said the same despicable thing and show the same contempt that you have for China?

Second, irregardless of what the Chinese government policies are (now or in the past) and what they did in the Tiananmen Square (those are different issues, by the way), the facts remain that Japanese troops did kill more than 300,000 Chinese during the WW2. The whole world knows this. There are material evidences and live witnesses attesting that this event did happen. So why are there people trying to deny those horrific crimes now by talking craps about other unrelated issues?

Third, I understand that there are alot of people associated with Japan but why defend the indefensible when there are plain evidences that prove what horrible crimes the Japanese have committed during WW2? This is a matter of justice which China never receive till this day. And yet, all they are asking is just a simple apology from the Japanese government to acknowledge the atrocities of war and to stop trying to rewrite history. Why is that asking too much?

Last but not the least, to the ignorant Americans (not you, Mr Jim), you have only a few thousands killed in the 911 terrorists attack and you immediately waged war against the perpetrators. The Chinese have more than that amount massacred and what have they done to seek justice? Absolutely nothing. Did they attack the Japanese? Or show any retaliation? What makes you people more special than the Chinese then? In the end, we are all of the same race, Homo Sapiens. I say that the Chinese government has been really patient with Japan for so long now. Don't get me wrong, I love Japan and its culture. (heck, I even fashioned myself a Japanese pseudonym). But I know what is right and what is wrong. My sense of justice is not warped unlike some users here. Japan is clearly wrong in this matter. They should properly apologise to China for the atrocities committed against the Chinese. It is as simple as that.

P/S. To DS, you have completely lost the ability to think rationally and judiciously. God help you.

Answer 3

Very good research, Marie! But there are many, many flaws in this theory. FIRST: They are directly comparing apples and oranges - i.e., Christianity against Darwinism. - I dare say that if Hitler had been a Buddhist, there would have been no Holocaust.. If Hitler had been a Hippie-Atheist, there would have been no Holocaust. If Hitler had not had psychiatric problems, there would have been no Holocaust.... Are you beginning to see the point? Just because someone was influenced by something good to do evil, does not make the influencing device evil. To wit: The Inquisition, The murders of The Son of Sam, Jim Jones and the suicide cult, Mormons and the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Slavery, wife-beatings.. Every one of these evils has direct connections with the Bible. We know that selection is effective in "refining" gene pools. This is not a theory. ..and in all honesty, genetic selection has benefited mankind for centuries - the idea that human genetic selection is some kind of "sacred cow" stems merely from religious people who decry atrocities brought about by the likes of Hitler, etc. This is a prime example of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater." Remember, Communism, totalitarianism, dictatorships - are NOT atheism! Though they hold atheistic beliefs, such as "Religion is the opiate of the masses..." There are other factors that add up to atrocity. As you have seen, The Bible can be a good source for great evil (Have you never read the Old Testament?) But ultimately, it is the sanity of the dictator and the pure atheist understanding that love for others is a fundamental and logical tenet of Atheism. An atheist of understanding would never condone the abuse of any person.

Answer 4

Many thoughtful responses above.

I agree that the continued tendency to deny war crimes in Japan is troubling, and adds insult to injury for many Chinese.

I also agree that China's Maoist policies wrought havoc on the Chinese people generally. Even before the Cultural Revolution, the Great Leap Forward followed the awful, massively lethal 15 Years War, which blended into the horrific Chinese Civil War, which followed on the devastating Taishan Rebellion (I have family ties there), and that's only the 20th century!

I think a Truth and Reconciliation approach might be the most productive. I'm sure a Chinese/Japanese truth and reconciliation process would have to differ from the South African, Rwandan and Guatemalan approaches.

In truth and reconciliation, the freedom to speak without fear of punishment loosen tongues, and rewards those who abstain from retaliation by giving them the psychological satisfaction of finally hearing confessions.

The United States ought to have a similar process regarding the war and occupation in Iraq.

Answer 5

What will happen if Germany never apologized to Jewish people? At least the Holocoust is the in the textbook, but when was the last time you learned about what happen to China?

Japan should apologize, not because the Chinese government want it, but Chinese PEOPLE want it. Bring up something like "oh how many people Mao killed" is irrelevent because not only it's a different story. Germany can't just tell Israel "look how may Palestinian you killed".

Answer 6

A Chinese apology or a Japanese apology?

As someone who knows Japanese culture quite well, I can tell you that many times when a Japanese apologizes for something, you do not even realize they have apologized. First of all, the way they say things that they consider embarrassing or dishonorable is very indirect. For example, when they surrendered on VJ Day back in 1945, the exact translated words coming from the Emperor Hirohito were "The state of the war has come to a point where it can no longer be continued" ...now if you are an American or Chinese and listen to that, you think the man has said nothing and is just pure rhetoric, but to a Japanese these sentence means "We have been defeated in a humiliating way" , It all has to do with the Japanese culture understanding of those words.

The same goes with the Nanjing apologies, numerous times politicians have said sentences that to the Japanese mean a clear apology, but the Chinese probably consider it mere rhetoric. This is a large cultural divide what we are facing, but the fact is, Japan has aplogized many times, what happens is that the Chinese leaders do not want to accept that because they badly need a scapegoat for their own problems.

After all, didn't Mao kill far more Chinese than the the Japanese did? I never heard an apologize from the communist party for that one.

NOTE
With so many "edits" done every few hours, it is obvious you do not seek for real answers, but you just want to hear what you want to hear. In that case, better ask the Chinese, and get the answers you really want to hear.

YE ANOTHER NOTE
My bad, apparently the communist party has distanced themselves from Mao. But that does not imply they have achieved democracy or abandoned totalitarianism. Please people, do not idealize such a regime, the Chinese government right now have more things in common with the Japanese Imperialism of the 1930s than the modern Japanese Government of today has.

Answer 7

Neither Japan nor China have achieved the post-nationalist utopia that our European brethren think is inevitable, and this is just the latest salvo in a continuing battle of blame. It doesn't help that both countries are what sociologists call a 'shame culture,' in which reputation or 'face' are more important than in the West. Western cultures are considered 'guilt cultures.' I don't consider myself enough of an expert to dissect this difference in detail vis-a-vis this case, but it does seem pertinent. Anyone?
http://www.doceo.co.uk/background/shame_guilt.htm

(Sometimes this shame approach might come in handy. What if the chairman of FEMA during the Katrina disaster, 'Brownie,' had felt compelled to commit ritual suicide to atone for his failures? Might this not have a salutary effect, 'pour encourager les autres?')

The immediate cause of this salvo was probably the recent unveiling of a new edition of the government-approved history texts in Japan, which were once again too silent on Japanese responsibility for the war to satisfy foreign observers, especially the Chinese.

On both sides, it's mostly about domestic political advantage. In Japan, as an earlier poster has noted, the Japanese government never quite admits that it was the aggressor in China, preferring to emphasize the suffering - the victimization - of the Japanese people later in the war. The fact that Japan was the only place that atomic weapons have ever been used helps immeasurably with this, of course. There is a strong strain of right wing nationalist public opinion in Japan that rejects any politician who apologizes for the war at all, and celebrates any who is willing to publicly visit the Yasukuni shrine where Japanese war dead, including some war criminals convicted by the Allied courts, are interred. Of course, the Chinese and South Koreans erupt when this happens, which only makes the Japanese right wingers happier.

At the same time, the Chinese, faced with unresolved questions about where to go next, with a Communist government of increasingly dubious legitimacy presiding, so far very successfully, over a great capitalist success story (but largely ignoring those who can't keep up, or are hurt along the way), are resorting to 'waving the bloody shirt,' as Republican politicians so often did in the decades after the American Civil War to silence Democratic opponents.

Compared to the Rape of Nanking, when perhaps 200,000, perhaps twice that, Chinese were killed one at a time by vindictive Japanese soldiers, annoyed that the Chinese army dared to defend the city, this is trivial. But it's something the Chinese government can bring up, again, to get the Chinese people to rally round. There were enough barbarities committed during the war in China that I'm sure the Chinese government can bring up a new one and demand an apology every week for the next year or two, if they wish. Of course, the Japanese can be forgiven, perhaps, for rolling their eyes a bit at this rehashing of 'ancient' history for modern political point scoring.

As earlier posters have noted, this attack upon Japanese-perpetrated atrocities sixty-odd years ago would be more convincing if the Chinese authorities would be similarly able to admit the excesses (atrocities) of the Cultural Revolution and even of the Tien-an-men massacre, their occupation of Tibet, or would take a more responsible tack on Darfur.

Also, let's recognize the splendid job the Germans have done in facing their own demons. Would that the Russians, or the Austrians, or to a lesser degree the Swiss or the French or the Catholic Church, were so brave.

(In response to the questioner's comments, I don't believe the Chinese have really begun to explore the true tragedy of what happened during the Cultural Revolution, or of other abuses that preceded that. Until they open the archives, and let the scholars go where they will, and, most importantly, allow them to publish their conclusions in Chinese popular publications, I will continue to think that they are more remiss than the Japanese are on their guilt during the war in China. At least they Japanese are allowing mostly foreign scholars to study the period, even if they don't publish the conclusions in Japan.)

Answer 8

Jimbo, between Dec 1937 and Jan 1938 the Japanese held a killing feast which became infamous as the Nanjing Massacre. About 300,000 people were killed during this time and countless rapes were committed. Why the friggin' hell are you or is anybody even talking about those 1,000 people? In the total head count this is nothing.

The Nanjing Massacre happened, it's well documented and the Japanese have to acknowledge their brutal past just like the Germans had to do. This is not only about these 1,000 dead you mention or the 300,000 dead of the Nanjing Massacre but this is about all the people the Japanese have killed during WWII.

Answer 9

Governments tend to do things which promotes government intervention into the private lives of individuals and go through all types of convolutions justifies such actions. Cultural evolutions as well as specific times in histories of peoples and areas can encourage the justification of such acts.

Most nations have historic events in which such events have occurred. More often than not such events are anomalies in the context of cultural histories and are rarely the product of ethnic intent of one people against another. That doesn’t lessen the brutality of a specific act but there is a difference between acts occurring due to the lapse of humanity and the military intent of one people against all others of another people.

The rape of Nan King and other similar acts of the Japanese military circa World War II was a result of military policy resulting in an intent to control a people by cowing the civilians through brutality. That similar acts in the histories of the Chinese people (i.e., the acts of the Mongols) also occurred doesn’t lessen or justify subsequent acts by the Japanese. Within the United States similar acts have occurred but have usually been of the type considered anomalies relative to military policy, however, there have been some exceptions. One is the intent to control a native people by decimating the American Bison and thereby destroying the viability of a culture.

Another, and less well known, was during the Civil War. Specifically on direct order of the President to the Generals Grant and Sherman, to directly attack the civilians of the South during Sherman’s march to the sea through Georgia. The intent was to destroy the civilians’ desire to support their government in the war and thereby bring the war to an end.

For any government entity to apologize for such acts requires a number of factors to exist. There must be wide public (and growing) awareness of the act(s); there must be pressure by the winning side to force the losing side to face these acts; there must be in the government doing the act a cultural ethic that such act is unjustifiable.

In other words, anticipating any real excuse will mean a life time of waiting.

Answer 10

I give you my utmost respect for willing to look into the matter.

Everybody knows it happened, there are primary source witnesses 2 generations back. The worst is, there are people out there who say it never happened and turn over to say we fabricated this event. Or there are some that puts the blame on the Chinese side or downplays this event because of Japan's closer relationship with the "old imperial powers in the west"

J-kibler - the Chinese gov't have already openly held a meeting to condemn Mao back in Deng's(previous chairman) era, they call it "self-reflection" conference on Mao. you can find those records.

About a month ago, it was the 70th? anniversary of the war, what they want now is not looking to further condemn the japanese govt but to find a way to work thru and build a better relationship in the future for people of both sides in the future.


-as for "new american century" - boy, i see you came fully prepared? lol

Answer 11

Its possible that they may apologize, they apologized to the Philippines!
When the Japanese occupied the philippines in 1941-45 they set up these brothels and filipinas were forced into them as sex slaves.
An apology was made then they denied making it and then the Japan leader Abe sent an envoy here to apologize in person.
Nothing said about any restitution for these poor elderly women whose lives had been ruined and torn apart!
I would like to hear an apology from them for the Bataan "death march" in 1942, when some 20,000 American and Filipino troops died along the way!
My father was one of the lucky ones who escaped, he later helped train the guerrila forces in the mountains.