Just a thought....?

Question

Recently I have been thinking about composers such as Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, etc., and how they in all probability would have composed pieces differently had their instruments been of the quality of todays instruments. For example, we know that Beethoven pushed the limits, and even redefined what one can do on the piano. If the piano had been even close to the quality of todays pianos, just imagine what he might have composed.....just a thought!

Dansinger... to say that the quality of todays instruments are not superior to those of the past is preposterous. Just as an example - when it comes to a piano, if you are too rough on the keys, the string on the harp can snap. Beethoven is known to have snapped his share of strings. Just listen to the Hammerklavier. Beethoven pushed the piano to its limit. Who knows how far he would have went had he had a piano of todays quality.

Landis...if Beethoven heard the disco version of the fifth symphony he would probably have wished he had never composed it!!

Glinzek...you started out so well...:-)...what happened??? I disagree with your claim that this discussion is fruitless. Based on your first comments, I'm surprised that you deemed this discussion fruitless. I think that it is a valid and interesting look into the nature of composition, (that being whether the composer has the instrument and its limitations in mind). I'm quite certain Bach would have composed differently had he had access to the modern piano, or for that matter any pianoforte. Enough about that:-)!!
I'm not quite sure in what context you are speaking when you say "playability" of Bach and Mozart, with regard to this topic. More explanation needed.

Malcom...I understand that removing the composer from their time would be foolish and pointless. I was only speculating as to the nature of composition with regards to the instruments they are composed for.

Wow...a question that produced all long answers...LOL

Answer 1

The question almost answers itself...

If these instruments were available to Mozart, Bach, Beethoven et al, their timbres would have been in their ears, their abilities and limitations would have been well documented. Sure, they would have been different. Can't imagine Bach not taking advantage of the increased nuances available on today's pianos, Beethoven taking advantage of the dynamic capabilities of cast iron piano harps, more advanced string making technologies, greater flexibilities of the valved horn -- but then again, Brahms always insisted on using natural horns, even though the valved versions were available. Interesting. But a fruitless discussion -- no insult intended.

Dansinger, yes, many violins produced in Mozart's time are still alive and kicking, but the strings, bridges and bows are not. Today, bridges have a higher arch to create more tension and thus greater projection. String technology has changed. The instrument sound differtly than it did back then -- whether superior or not is a matter of argument.

And I am curious about your views on the playability of Bach and Mozart. I am a decent (read that "above average") pianist, and I approach these works with some trepidation. Easy they are not, at least to play them well and musically. And like it or not, the "great music" is hard to play. But it sure doesn't keep us from listening to it and enjoying it. Or attempting to play it. :-)

Answer 2

I'm not sure that they would have composed very much differently than they did. Fine stringed instruments were available then as now, admittedly, the strings would be better but not markedly enough to change composition. The piano is a little different. Beethoven when completing the Hammerklavier Sonata, reckoned that it would keep pianists busy for the next fifty years. Clearly it was not composed in any way limited by the pianos available to Beethoven. The best pianos actually are probably not modern, rather those made in the 1920's and 30's. Currently produced pianos vary wildly in quality and tone. With all deference to Steinway and perhaps Fazioli and Bosendorfer, a lot of modern pianos, particularly some produced in Asia are certainly not superior.
As an aside... the music composed by the great composers is really defined by the time in which it was created. As such any arguments removing them from the milieu in which they created are inherently invalid. If Beethoven were alive today he certainly would not write the same thing. The music of the greats is locked in time - it is what makes it classical - it is what makes it truly great.

Answer 3

Have you ever played an instrument from Beethoven's time? The piano was invented during his lifetime and some of the pianos he had were fantastic instruments. How would you know that the pianos of his time are lesser quality to those of today? There are lots of European pianos that have been passed down which sound probably even better than some of today's instruments. Take one of Lizst's pianos for example, 1 of them is still being played on and apparently it sounds incredible. Wish I could get my hands on it!
By the way, the Bösendorfer is a fantastic 19th C piano, one of the best and still is. And of course, there are the Pleyel pianos which are fabulous.
Go to these web sites and read about the history of the piano. You'll see that Beethoven had it pretty good. I think he would enjoy our modern day pianos very much but as you read the article from the cantos.org you'll notice that we haven't done much to our modern day pianos.
And lastly, Beethoven was mostly deaf by the time he wrote his most famous and serious piano works. I don't think having a modern day piano would have helped change much.
"During the 18th century changes in musical taste gradually favored the piano's greater volume and expressiveness, and the instrument had largely replaced the harpsichord and clavichord by 1800. C. P. E. Bach, Mozart, Haydn, and Clementi were the first major composers to write for the piano. The main body of its enormous literature, from the 19th cent., includes the works of Beethoven, Czerny, Schubert, Chopin, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Franck, Tchaikovsky, and Liszt. Debussy and Ravel used the special effects peculiar to the piano in highly original ways. In the 20th century some composers, notably Bartok, have emphasized the instrument's percussive qualities.

The piano was originally built in the shape of a harpsichord, and this style, the grand piano, has always been the standard form. It was greatly improved by the 19th-century innovation of an iron framework, best applied by the Steinways of New York City. The square piano, with strings parallel to the keys, was the most popular domestic piano until the early-19th-century perfection, in Philadelphia, of the upright piano. The English piano maker John Broadwood was the first to develop the present heavier, more sonorous instrument. In 1810 the double-action striking mechanism, which permits rapid repetition of a tone, was perfected."

So go to this article and read on, you'll notice that after the modern piano was invented in the early 19th C, nothing better was made. You have mechanical pianos and then the computerized pianos/keyboards.

Answer 4

The instruments available at the time of those composers were DIFFERENT, not lower quality. As a matter of fact, violins constructed during Mozart's lifetime (Stradivari) are STILL the best ever, and those are just the ones that have survived. Imagine how many fine instruments must have been available at the time.

I will admit that woodwinds have improved over time -- the Boehm fingering system and later improvements have vastly improved the playability of all woodwinds, especially in the area of alternative fingerings available for trills and such.

However, I don't believe that great music needs to rely so heavily on advanced technique. This was Pagannini's trick, and I, for one, have never been very impressed by it. By making music that is THAT difficult, one creates an elitist art form, that only the most talented artists can partake of. I much prefer the works of Bach and Mozart that are more accessible to the average player, and therefore available to a much wider audience of listeners.

Answer 5

Along with that and with what toutvas bien said, I've always wondered how someone like John Williams would have done if he had lived two hundred years ago. BTW, Mozart did a great deal to develop the forte-piano in his time. In comparison to Beethoven, I don't know.

I don't know enough about composition to guess how modern style instruments would have affected their compositions. I have wondered how some of them would feel about certain adaptations that have taken place since their times, like Stokowski's arrangement of Toccata & Fugue in D-minor for full orchestra. Would Bach love it or would he gag? Would Mozart like the guitar arrangements written by Sor, etc? Is there even the slightest chance that Beethoven would enjoy the disco version of his Fifth Symphony?

Answer 6

actually they would be writing pop songs .... because they wrote for money and those that paid got the music

Get a grip people the great composers wrote for their benefactors to earn a living and where is the most money to be gained but in pop songs