English smoking ban - room for dispassionate discussion?

Question

The debate about the English smoking ban bats to and fro like a table-tennis ball. Smokers say this, non-smokers say that - tweedledee v. tweedledum.

I would like to see a reasoned argument. Can we examine the following points?

1. Approximately 23% of the UK population smoke tobacco.

2. Smoking tobacco is a legal indulgence.

3. What is the percentage of the users of drink-only public houses who object to smoking in drink-only public houses.

4. How many readers of this site have started to use drink-only pubs in England since the start of the smoking ban? ( I mean 'Rovers Return type pubs, not nightclubs), who had not used pubs before?

5. Where, on the Internet, can one find evidence that Government ( not ASH, not FOREST) has researched the above, and published it?

6. What is the age profile of a] smokers and b] non-smokers involved in the use of drink-only public houses.

Answers that simply state that'smoking stinks' or that 'smoking rocks' will be given short shrift by me.

Answer 1

Hi. Nice question.

I don’t know the exact facts and figures because I do not believe the question has ever been asked of the public objectively. The closest we have are the Internet polls run by the media prior to the ban. A very good example is this:

The government say they recently conducted a poll involving 1700 people and 70% agreed with the smoking ban. I recently found an internet poll run by the BBC involving around 97000 people where 70% were against a smoking ban in pubs, bars and clubs.

I have just found another one, again by the BBC that shows the following:

Pubs and Clubs:
Yes: 37%
No: 57%
Don't Know: 6%

Source: Survey by the Medical School at the University of Newcastle.

I suspect that at least 15% of the 37% that voted yes are not regular pub or club goers.

The pubs are NOT seeing an increase in trade after the ban. They are seeing a sharp decrease on bad weather days. It is my belif that some non-pub going non–smokers will visit a pub a few times for the novelty value but will never become ‘regular’ pub goers as it is not in their life style.

I think the proof can be seen visually. On a normal day, not hot but not raining you look at a normal pub with an outside area. 95% of the customers will be outside while the inside is almost deserted.

I can say this for a fact. Some large pub chains experimented with the idea about 5 years ago. But they gave it up after a few weeks because they lost 98% of trade overnight. Given a choice most regular pub goers would rather switch to a smoking pub. That has to tell you something.

It is my belief that pubs owners don’t want it. Pub staff don’t want it and the vast majority of regular pub customers don’t want it. But, nobody ever asked us?

The main point is this. Is it really the place of any goverment that stands for freedom and democrecy to dictate to its people:

What not to say. What not to eat. What not to drink. What not to wear. What not to do and what not to think.

Do we really want the goverment to control every aspect of our lives or can we make up our own minds?

My last point is this. WHY? After hundreds of years do the councils feel the need to clamp down and fine people for dropping cigarette butts on the floor without making any provisions for the safe disposal? Why now? Why on the day of the ban? Why did they never care about it before?

I have gone from a normal hard working tax payer to criminal under class over night just because of my life style. But, IT IS STILL LEGAL! The whole thing feels very much like persecution to me..

Answer 2

The numbers of smokers in the UK population may very well be only 23% as the UK.gov insist. However, this figure does not apply to the pub-going population, which has a much higher percentage of smokers, probably as high as 40 or even 50% in some cases.

The grievance of pup-going smokers, is that they were not taken into consideration nor yet consulted on the issue.

Pub Landlords know they are already losing trade due to the smoke ban in England.

Already here in London a new culture of smoking and drinking outside pubs on the 'public pavement' has already sprung up.

The result of this new culture of out-of-doors booze-smoking is that pub landlords lose out all the way. The smokers get to smoke and they also bring their own booze. They're not spending a penny in the pubs.

The same culture has spread to other towns. I just spend the last weekend in Brighton. We drank freely but never once set foot inside a pub. All the booze was purchased from a nearby supermarket and quaffed standing on the pavement while smoking.

Personally, I have not smoked anything for over a week now as I am on a give up smoking thing. I expect it will work this time, because the tabs my doc prescribed have completely taken my addiction away.

I have not spoken about this to anyone else and would not try even to persuade people to give up.

What we should have in England is a system which will allow for smokers to have a smoking bar. If not in all pubs, then certainly in pubs which choose not to have a smoke free environment entirely.

The only reason we have a blanket smoke ban in England is because the Looney Ultra Left of the Labour Party in parliament argued that if you allowed pubs to have smoke rooms or smoke anyway if not selling food, then the hardest hit areas would be those pubs in the working class zones and it is the working class who need to give up the dreaded weed! etc.

The smoke ban in New York a few years ago, lead to the almost complete collaps of the downtown Manhattan network of bars, cafes and shops.

It used to be the practise that when folk finished work in Manhattan around 5 - 5.30 pm, they would go across the street to a bar and drink and smoke.

Because there is a smoking ban, this no longer happens. People rush from their offices straight onto the next train and off to the Hamptons where they can smoke and drink at home at far less expense.

In Ireland, the smoke ban has lead to similar problems in towns and cities across the land. In rural areas, many country pubs have simply had to close up for lack of trade.

What smoker in his/her right mind is going to drive 30 miles to a country pub of a Sunday in Ireland only to be told, sorry, no smoking?

It will not happen and it is not happening.

Overall the total smoke ban is going to prove a disaster for many businesses. They just don't know it yet, because it's warm and Summery and smokers can stand outside.

Remember, bad weather and the cold comes to England from October and remains sharp until late April. That's seven months by the way.

If you think the smoke ban is working for the good, then just ask yourself this simple question - why did UK.gov start the smoke ban at the hight of summer, 1st July 2007?

Answer, they knew that smokers would easily accent the idea of standing outside for a smoke.

If the ban were to he imposed on a winter's day in January, smokers would not go to the pubs.

Disaster ahead! Believe!

Quitting soon......ahhhhhhgh! dying for a smoke!

Answer 3

I am a smoker, I dont want to give up and I am not going to, even if it does mean I can only smoke in my own home, as far as I am concerned the passive smoking thing (excuse the pun) is a smoke shield, if the stats are properly examined not a fraction of the population can be proved to have got diseases from passive smoking. why it couldnt just be left up to individual pubs etc to declare wether they are smoke free or not and so provide this nanny state we live in with alternative places to go if you dont want to be around smokers, and now a lot of local councils have introduced no drinking alcohol in the street, little pubs with no garden area like town pubs cant even provide outside space for the smokers. We pay tax on the things, its legal, it costs the goverment far less in the NHS than drinkers health problems and obese people yet we are criminalised for pursuing our legal habit!

Answer 4

I believe the smoking ban is an ifringement on rights - I mean, just cuase you smoke, you are thrown outside like some kind of animal - I can't belive it!!! I have asked non smokers about this and they say the atmosphere is not the same! Pubs have been struggling for a while ( and I don't mean the most popular ones, but locals) and this is the last straw for them! who gave the govenrment the right to do this - they work for the people and should have left it to the landlord's descresion (he knows his clientel). Failing that, what's wrong with going back to the old tap room system? - a room for smokers and a room for non- smokers? AND = let's be honest - non smokers have had the right to choose to go in the pub for years! I think it is pathetic to see human beings getting wet through outside a pub becuase they cannot smoke inside!!
Some one said the other day: If you can't go without a smoke for two hours. there's something wrong. Yes, something wrong with them - they do not understand the pleasure smokers get from having a comfortable seat, pint and cigarette!! One more point: You can go without a drink for days, but smokers HAVE to have thier cigarettes!!!!!!!

Answer 5

I am a former smoker and live in California, Slow but sure we were corralled into a small room in a large building and eventually, outdoors and away from the door. Some cities want to ban smoking outdoors, No restaurants or bars allow smoking, no prisons. Quite a loss of freedom, especially for the prisoners who have very little to live for anyway. I am sure of this, when you give an inch, you will soon be giving a foot.
Personally I don't mind because I quit due to health reasons.
I will forgo the evils of smoking comments, they will just infuriate you.

Answer 6

I am a smoker of over 50 years standing and have absolutely no intention to attempt to stop. However, I support the right of everyone to breathe clean air and to be spared the stink of rooms, etc. populated by smokers. Does anyone remember how disgusting the smoking carriages in trains and on the tube were? I only ever smoke in the open air, which is better for me and for anyone near. Also I carry something in which to dispose of my ends and ash.

Answer 7

They're not taking away your right to make your own decision. The ban is not an outright ban on smoking, it simply bans people from smoking in restaurants, public areas, etc. They are NOT banning smoking within your own home. My state only has a ban on smoking in public buildings and in cars. Other than that, we don't have many other smoking bans, but that's probably because of Phillip Morris and their lobbying (their HQ is in Richmond, Virginia). I agree with smoking bans in public places and in restaurants. Second hand smoke is harmful to people who don't smoke, and I don't want to be exposed to that as a non-smoker. I do NOT want to sit in a restaurant and have tobacco smoke blowing into my face, I don't want to smell it either ... even in restaurants where they have a special section for smoking, any non-smoker will tell you that the smell goes throughout the entire building. Tobacco and marijuana should both be legal ... to smoke in private residences or specifically designated areas of public places, but nowhere else. These are habits that produce a smoke that effects others (smell, taste, second hand smoke, etc) therefore the government DOES have a right to regulate it in *public* places for public health reasons.

Answer 8

It is a minority of people who smoke, and as it is rather bad for their health, anything that helps them give up is fine by me, but i doubt that many people will quit, just because of this ban.
Whilst a lot of people did object to people smoking around them whilst they were eating, I don't think it was such a problem in pubs etc.
It is obvious that a number of people have gone back to drink-only pubs now that this ban has come into place, but not a large amount, and in some places this does not make up for the number of smokers who stopped going, which of course is punishing the pub-owners for the type of people who go to their pub (or used to go, as it were).
However, I think that overall this ban will achieve better health in the nation, and may even stop some of the younger people who start smoking aged 12 or younger from doing so. If it saves people's lives, keeps more lungs etc. avaliable for transplant to patients who hadn't ruined theirs through smoking, that it's a good thing.

Answer 9

I think the laws should have allowed pubs to be licenced for smoking, then the landlord could have either applied for a licence or not according to his customers, blanket bans on a legal passtime are a contradiction in terms.

Any government research is, by its nature flawed, as they will adjust it to say what they want, you can take all the useful vitamins out of food, you can drench the earth with chemicals that are toxic, and thats fine, you can allow people to drink themselves to death 24 hours a day, you can eat till your heart stops, all fine and dandy, but you light up a cig and you will be dragged before the courts and fined, which makes no sense.

There are plenty of people who say "my old gran smoked 20 a day till she died aged 96" but not many people who say "my old gran drank a bottle of scotch before breakfast till she died aged 96" or "my old gran was 400lbs till she died aged 96" drinkers and obese people are more of a drain on rescources than smokers, and obese people dont even pay any damn taxes on their indulgence!

Oh and just for the record "my old mum smoked 20 a day till she died aged 84" and she would have lived longer, if she hadnt caught MRSA, in her heel, her heart was fine, and her lungs were fine, till the hospital got hold of her.

Answer 10

Smoking must only be on areas allowed under the law so that non-smokers will be protected.