Electrical catastrophe on a '87 Honda CBR 600 Hurricane?

Question

Hey all. Here's my problem: three days ago I was riding for about 20 minutes when the bike just quit, the engine kept spinning in gear but no spark. I pulled over and observed the lights and horn were weak and sluggish, and the starter motor wouldn't respond at all. I'm walking the bike back, I come to a downhill stretch 10 min later and successfully started the bike rolling down and dropping the clutch. Bike stayed running for 2 or 3 min and died again same as before. Tried push starting again unsuccessfully many times immediately after, but when I tried 20 min later it started again, went a few min, and died again, repeat for 7 miles. Assumed dead battery, charged overnight, rode about town during the day about 20 miles total and it died again same as before, no response from starter at all, won't push start either. 5 hours and out of work it starts with the starter but dies same as before 2 min later pulling into my driveway. ????? Where to start? I don't get it...

Answer 1

Hi Irv,,

BATTERY:
The fact that battery re-builds it's charge while "sitting" is
a pretty good indication the battery is not the problem.
Especially since it's done that several times.

Seems pointless to "check for drain" while Key is Off.
See "Battery" ,above.
If there was Any Drain with Key Off,,,,
Battery would NOT re-build it's charge while Key is OFF.
Very Simple Logic there.

Wiring,Fuses:
Because bike starts & runs OK,,,,for however few minutes before draing battery,,,,
That's fair confirmation that EVERYTHING related to Start & Run function is OK.

That's Further Confirmed by the fact that Run-Time appears Relative to amount of Battery Charge Time.
Few minutes Charge or REST=few minutes run.
Overnight Charge = Several minutes run.

Faults with Other parts of Ignition or "Start/Run" related components would NOT be in correlation to Amount of Battery Charge.

Ignition CDI,,Coils,etc---if They were bad,,,and went glitchy at 3 minutes ON-time for example,,,
They would be consistent,,,shutting down at same approx run-time/3~4 minutes.
Battery level would have no effect.

All-the Above rules out Batt,,and practically Everything EXCEPT: :Charging System.

I'm sure it would be pointless/Fruitless to spend any effort checking/testing parts & systems which are obviously Functioning.
Including Battery.

..........................................................
Ok,,,Your bike and many,many others of it's era
had well known and widely documented issues with Charging system.

Generator Stators,,,
were so frequently failing an entire new aftermarket industry sprung up.
In early 80's,,,there was no such thing available except Factory OEM parts.

Regulator/Rectifier,,,
same as above.
That Era was also the introduction of those 2 Units being Integrated into One Part.
The Cost went sky high,,,while Reliability went the Other way,,,straight to hell

After Stators,,Rect/Regs,,,,about all that's left is Wiring .
Yep,,,Wiring Too had persistent probs on several bikes.

{Generator}---/wire/---{Rectifier/Regulator Unit}---/wire/-- +++Batt----

That's a raw schematic of the charging system.
It's THAT simple.
Batteries are "just batteries",they're simple devices,,,and yours has been tentatively verified as functional.

EVERYTHING else in that chain is KNOWN TROUBLE.
Even the WIRE,,,the Connectors actually are the "wire" problem.

That narrows it down to 3 things.

You can start at either end,,,or anywhere.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
*Stator has 3 Yellow wires (maybe white??i dunno).
Color dont matter.
It has 3 Wires,,all same color.
Those are A/C Output.

TEST:
(*Be Extremely CAREFUL--these have plenty enough Volts/Amps to be Lethal if "connected right" through your Body to ground....it's rough equivalent of HOUSE CURRENT)

*Unplug Alternator
*Use a Voltmeter set on a minimum 100Volt A/C Scale.
* Test between Each Pair of the 3
-1&2
-1&3
-2&3

Run engine at about 1500~2000 RPMS.
Then at about 5~6,000.

RESULTS:
Should be about 20 Volts A/C at Low Speed.
Should be about 60~70 Volts A/C at Hi Speed.

(I dunno exact specs,,,get a book if so desired.)

But it will be in that approx Range of voltages,,,and at those RPM ranges.

Compare each pair's test results.

Interpret Results:
*If Voltage is LOWER that the above stated approx's,,,It's BAD
*If Voltage is NOT Uniform across all pairs,,,within Less than 10%,,,,,It's Bad
* If any pair is very Low or Dead,,it's BAD

Stators are SIMPLE,,,no "mysteries".
A coil of wire wound on an iron core--wave a magnet near it & it produces current.

They are either "Good or Bad",,,like a Light Bulb.
VERY RARE anomalies occur where they are Intermittent.

A Consistent range of Output in 60V Minimum area on All Pairs=95%++Chance it's GOOD.

LOW output,or No Output,or significant variation in output among Pairs=99.9%++ Chance it's BAD


The FIX for a Bad Stator:
Replace it.
Use OEM or Aftermarket,,or have yours rewound.

Personally,,I would not trust a "Used" one.
They are all quite aged by now,,,and their Coils' Insulation is "age sensitive".

The Used ones I've seen for Various Bikes have not been "Discounted" Enough from NEW Part Pricing to be attractive.

$20~30 Savings on a 15~20 Year Old USED part,,that's availble Aftermaket NEW for around $100 With a Warranty??

But is COST is an Issue,,,and you find one cheap enough,,
Then it may be worth rolling the dice.

I'm Not telling you DO/DONT,,,,,only My Opinion on the viability/value of the choices you have available.

You can SEE or measure the condition of many,many "Old Parts",,,,and on Many Things AGE is not a consideration.
"Example" a Good Fork Leg is a Good Part whether it 5 yrs or 50 Years old.

Electrical stuff,,,,,not the same case.
Much of electrical parts ARE age sensitive.


..............................................
WIRING:
The actual Wire can be cut/broken/have damaged insulation,etc.

If STATOR Test shows a "Dead" Coil,,,,
It's worthwhile to Check the Wires with an Ohmmeter from end-to-end (Stator end ,to Connector) for Continuity.
Jiggle and Tug the wire to make certain it's not got a Loose solder joint,,,or internally broken.

The far more Common Prob on the "Wires" is the Connectors.
They get HOT from poor connection,,,build up a lot of resistance.
Many will MELT the Wire,,or the Connector Blocks.

Less severe evidence is DARK connector contacts,,,versus Bright "Brass" look.
Blocks will discolor.to Yellow>Caramel>Brown>Black.
Wire Insulation loses it's bright,vivid colour & shiny plastic look,
It becomes Dull/Flat/Rubbery Looking.

The Connectors will get a distinct "electrical" smell ,,or burnt/plastic,,or "old grease' smell.
Normally they No Sent whatsoever.
VISUAL inspection can fool ya sometimes....
Scent Wont.
They begin "smelling" before they burn.
Any scent at all is indication it's been getting HOT.
That HEAT is a clear symptom of High Resistance/BAD Connection.

BEST FIX ,,Electrically,,,is to Solder the wires together.
You Lose the "pluggability" Convenience----but That in itself is part of problem.

Minimum Fix is to clean and tighten Connection Terminals.

Wire faults or damage,, on a Working Stator can simply have the old wire replaced.
I suggest going UP in wire gauge size to 14 or even 12ga.
"Too Big" never hurt anything,,,and it helps take a resistance load off Stator.

Me personally,I arbitrarily solder "crimp on " connections to minimize future probs.
Especially on Hi Current/Load connections.

..............................................................................................
RECTIFIER / REGULATOR Unit.

Those things are habitual problems.
They are of marginal capacity.
They are of minimal quality.
They get Minimal Cooling.
Each Subsection produces a BUNCH of Heat,,,worsened by being crammed into same "box".
And they are "Full Time ON" ,,,not Switching-On-Demand.
Which produces yet MORE heat.

It's amazing they work at all.
But they Live on the border of self-destruction.
They have No thermal protection circuitry.
And they dont have a substantial safety factor in their capacity.

TESTING:
It's tuff because you cannot physically isolate the 2 sections.

So "Testing" comes down a sorta of "Proof is in the pudding" approach.

All you can do is test the Red Wire's output to the Battery.
Should be around 14~15 volts.
Get a Book if you want Exact Numbers.
But I will tell you now & free of charge,,,,,
If it's Under about 13 volts,,it's Bad.
If it's over 15 Volts,,,it's not only BAD,it's dangerous.

You can also test it for the presence of any A/C Current ripple.
Set Meter on A/C Voltage Scale and check between Battery (+) and Ground.
There should be NO A/C present whatsoever.

That's Indication of RECTIFIER CONDITION.
Your Bike "cannot" have a Rectifier Problem,,,and has No A/C present.
Because:
a)It dont drain Batt when Key is Off,,so Rectifier is Not leaking backwards to ground.
b) Battery is Not Destroyed by being "charged" with A/C Current.
Because Batt re-builds it's charge,,,,and will take a charge.
So obviously the Rectifier Diodes are not leaking the Negative component of A/C wave forward to the Batt.

Rectifier therefore "Can't" be Bad,,,99%++ Chance NOT.

So it would be pointless to install a "primary/auxilliary" rectifier Ahead of your R/R Unit.

If your Rect/Reg Unit DID display Rectifier Fault Symptoms,,,
it's Cheap & Easy to ADD a stand alone Rectifer,,,,or even discreet Inline Diodes.
A Few $$ would "save" replacing a $100++ R/R Unit.

REGULATOR SECTION is what really takes a beating.

The way it "Regulates Voltage" is by Shunting-it-to-Ground.

You can Make one Real Easy ( DO NOT EVER REALLY DO THIS!!..NEVER)

But it IS Easy....
*Get a Single battery Jumper cable.
*Clamp it on the HOT terminal
*Then take the Other end,,,,and Tap it onto the Ground Terminal Real Quickly

If You put a Voltmeter on your battery,,,You can "Regulate" it's Voltage according to how quickly you DEAD SHORT the Battery.

SURE,,Sparks are Flying,,Lead Terminal Posts are Melting,,,Molten Lead is Flying......

But it WORKS,,,Do it Quickly and voltage stays high.
Lengthen the Contact Time a bit,,and Voltage DROPS.
LEAVE it Connected,,and Voltage will be ZERO.
And it'll STAY at ZERO after something BLOWS UP.

Would That be STUPID to Do??
Absolutely and Totally Stupid Of Course.
Anyone with 1/10 of a Brain who just read that is SURELY thinking,,
"That would be Totally STUPID thing to even THINK of doing"
Yep,,such a thing would Indeed be PURE STUPID.

GUESS why I even mentioned it?
Guess HOW your Voltage Regulator Works?

STUPID as we ALL know it IS to Short a Battery across it's 2 Terminals,,
that's EXACTLY how a Solid State Regulator Works.

It Oscillates a Hi Voltage Positive pole---DIRECTLY to GROUND.

It just does it Quicker than we can by hand.

Regulator "Flutters" a Short Circuit to Ground.

That's where all the HEAT ,Burnt Regulators,Fried Wires and Connector Blocks,and Beat-Up Batteries come from.

Car Alternators run on ELECTROMAGNETS.
Their Regulators Interupt Current to the ElectroMagnets,,,which turns the Alternator OFF & ON.

Most Bikes use Permanent Magnets,,,any time engine spins it makes juice.
Ya cannot Turn OFF a permanent magnet.

The Cheapest,Easiest way to Throttle the Voltage Output is to Trickle it /Jiggle it to Ground.

Otherwise it would need a Switch on Each leg of Alternator Output,,,big enough to carry the current,,,,and impossibly fast switching.
Plus a Large Capacity Resistor to establish Max Upper Limit.
Which is just another Big Heater.

So that STUPID SolidState Regulator sorta defaults to "Best Solution",,,,or,,Most Practical & Economical.

FIX:
All you can really do is just replace it.
Swap & Go ,,and do it again later when it finally goes bad again.

IMPROVEMENTS include adapting a Higher Current Capacity R/R Unit.

"All 12 Volt Regulators are the SAME">>ELECTRICAL FUNCTION-wise.
There's a few exceptions,
But Most are Different only in the AMPERAGE/Load Carrying Capacity.

I have READ that R/R Units from GSXR's and R1's are Good Heavy Duty,Hi Amp "upgrades " for CBR's.
Wiring Connections and Mounting would need to be revised,,,but that's not a big deal.

I dont recall any mention of adding a FAN to the regulator.
Small Fans are cheap and can be mounted securely a zillion ways.
Ground one wire,,,run the other to any switched 12v so it turns On/Off with Ignition key.

If a Fan sounds Goofy....
a $3 Fan inside you Computer on the CPU,, & sometimes on Control chipset,Video card....
They keep a Desktop PC running OK for YEARS.
Remove the CPU Fan,,,and CPU will FRY in Minutes,,or PC will shutdown and refuse to run.

My Opinion,,,,the difference between 5 Minutes-till-Destruction and 5 Years++ TroubleFree service is Pretty good testament that a $3~5 Fan Cooling Electronic Stuff is not such a Goofy Idea.
$5 seems like Cheap Insurance of a $100~120 Part to me.

.........................................................
Anyway,,,
You can get a Book,,
Check all sorts of stuff,
Check Battery,Fuses,etc.

But You are ultimately gonna find
*a Bad R/R Unit
*a Bad Stator
*some bad wiring & plug connections.

Keep in mind---Some of Those are CAUSATIVE in the the Failure of the Others,,,,
so conversely a Failure in one area is Symptom of a failure Elsewhere which is the Actual Underlying Cause.

THAT determination comes down to a "Chicken or Egg first?" sort of question.
Meaning it works Both Ways on several possibilities.
Most of that stuff can be EITHER ,,cause or Symptom.

So do a thorough troubleshooting to avoid putting a New,Good Part into a "destructive" System.

There's plenty of options for dealing with those things,,,from Cost Savings to Upgrades.

Bottom line is,,,Ya just gotta Replace the faulty Parts.

Good Luck with it.

Answer 2

Honda Hurricane 600

Answer 3

Definitely a low battery. - Why?
Sounds like the charging system has failed and you're running on battery or there's a drain somewhere, (A real fun project).
First disconnect & charge the battery.
While you do this continuity check for drain with the ignition off.
Reconnect the battery. The bike should start, it did before.
Now check the charging system. you should have over 14V. at the battery.
if the charging system has failed go through the system point by point, fuses, alternator, regulator.
If you find a drain on the system isolate the circuits & hunt it down.
Good luck.

Answer 4

Everything he said...plus, it could be that the battery is just far enough gone it won't hold a good charge. I'd check it after charging with a hydrometer and see if you have a weak or dead cell...but, most likely, the stator has shot craps...K ;o)