About the Holocaust......!?

Question

Let me tell first I'm a liberal Indian (Hindu) not anti-Jew!
After reading Anne Frank's diary and watching poignant tales on TV movies, I felt very sorry for the Holocaust survivors and wanted to share my feelings with my grandpa, who's a historian (not that famous) working on the Indus civilization.
I received a shock when he said he believed the whole Holocaust thing is a bluff created by Jews. We debated and argued a lot on it since I'd seen photos and videos showing the suffering of the Jews and could not believe him!
I also said that the Jews, being largely outnumbered by Christians couldn't have staged the whole thing, but the old man didn't change his opinion. Instead he said I was sympathising with Jews who according to him are the richest people because of their cunning tendency.(like John D. Rockefeller)
He too argued back that if Holocaust was true, why would its denial amount to jail in some European countries? Why no freedom of speech?

Answer 1

Take the question of imprisonment for denial of Holocaust first.
The majority feeling in the European countries is that anyone who denies Holocaust must be a neo Nazi because Nazis perpetrated this crime. Nazis are hated so much not because they caused the Holocaust but because they were responsible for the Second World War, in which 50 million (mostly young men) were killed and 250 million were maimed. In some countries entire generation of young people were wiped out. Most of them are not supporters of Jews but as far as they are concerned denial of Holocaust is akin to the denial of any wrongdoings on the part of the Nazis.
The first part of the question; is Holocaust a bluff?
Look at it this way. Just as your father puts it the Jews were and are very rich and 'cunning', in the eyes of people who found they could not compete against them. All successful people are hated by the people who live cheek and jowl with them. Jews were money lenders and money lenders are hated when the money has to be returned. Hitler used this hate of the Germans to the money lenders (Jews) to rally them around himself by starting the Holocaust. Holocaust was not started with the gas chambers, but with small things like not returning the money to the money lenders and attaching their property.
Another possible reason for the Holocaust is that some Jewish scientists with the Atom Bomb secrets ran away to America.

Answer 2

Holocaust denial is banned in several European countries because it is a form of antisemitic propaganda and nothing else.
In Germany, Holocaust denial is banned inspite of the principle of free speech because it is:

- incitement
- slander of the memory of the dead
- insult

This is not the only example that free speech has its limits.

Imagine for example somebody was murdered in your home town, and his family and friends were mourning for him. Imagine that then someone would start to tell everybody that the victim was not really dead or had actually never lived and all who knew him and mourn for him and speak of his death were liars who just wanted to gain sympathy and wanted to get more money. Do you think this should be tolerated or that it would be tolerated?

Holocaust denial is a form of hate speech and is necessarily connected with antisemitic stereotypes, particularly the one that Jews would be generally very cunning and would have some special powers to manipulate others. I mean Holocaust denial is slander of the dead, it is an insult of the survivors and those who lost family, and saying that the Jews would have fabricated it is a libel that does incite hatred. Absurd theories of Jewish world conspiracies are much older than the Holocaust, and they were one of the factors that led to the Holocaust. The Nazis and many others claimed the Jews were playing some dark game in secret to gain world control. These false allegations were the main drive of the murderous form of antisemitism. Hitler was obsessed by this idea. Now claiming the Holocaust would have been fabricated by some Jewish conspiracy is just a variety of these hatred-inciting conspiracy theories.

Holocaust denial is not the only form of hate speech that is banned. As far as I know in all countries were Holocaust denial is banned, also other forms of antisemitic and racist propaganda are banned.

Answer 3

If he is a true historian, then how does he explain the masses of original source material (first-hand testament from both sides and the liberators; photographic evidence; etc) that is available.

I think you have answered this question already when you said he "believed" it was all a bluff - he is obviously not basing his belief on the evidence.

Doesn't he find it interesting that those countries where Holocaust Denial can lead to a prison sentence are those closest to the original perpetrators (eg. Austria)? I am all for freedom of speech - but these countries obviously still feel the need for some kind of atonement. That, too me, cements the view that it was all true, as if there was ever any doubt.

Leave him be - if this is his belief then you will not shake him by debate. He will never be a famous historian if he denies the source material.

Answer 4

Grandpa, as an historian, would probably be most impressed by what historians call "contemporary" evidence. This means evidence which is contemporary with the time in which an event occurred. Examples: In the case of Indus civilization contemporary evidence would be the material discovered by archaeologists; in the US Civil War it would include newspaper stories written during the war itself, and in WWII Germany, it would include the facilties and records remaining after the death camps were liberated. These things will either tend to corroborate or challenge the historical record.

The death camps themselves were real places; the survivors spoke of them, and so did the troops who liberated them. Newspaper reporters took pictures, radio reporters broadcast their stories. Also, the Germans kept paper records of what they did there, took pictures and made movies. As the allies moved across Germany, they captured or discovered these materials and of course marched right in to the death camps. The same information and evidence came from the prisoners, their captors and their liberators, all sources of information that were independent of one another. So, to be a bluff, there would need to be something in common, some purpose or goal they ALL shared -and none has been found. How would it help the Jews to make up a story about being killed? How would it help the Germans to admit they did so?

Historical CONTEXT is important as well. In the Soviet Union, Joseph Stalin killed off 10 million of his countrymen whose political views were a threat, in his belief. And so, the idea of killing off entire populations to support political agendas was nothing new, and it continues today (Bosnia, Africa).

I doubt that Grandpa can be persuaded to change his mind, and his opinion is shared by a few others. You obviously have so much respect for him that his point of view is very upsetting.

The only bit of history that gives any support at all for his view is the fact that very little was reported about the death camps when they were operating. The New York Times, for example, printed reports about them on the inside pages of the paper -NOT on the front page. When Allied leaders were asked by important Jewish leaders in America and Britain to take military action to liberate the camps, they were told the best way to free the Jews was to win the war as quickly as possible. Diverting troops and material to death camp missions would slow down the over-all war effort. Thus, the enormity of the German operations wasn't well publicized until after Germany surrendered. None of this means that the whole thing was a hoax, of course, but the lack of early publicity while the horror was taking place meant that there was less public awareness AT THE TIME. Then again, it comes as a surprise to many people to learn that Stalin killed many more of his countrymen then Hitler did.

The idea of freedom of speech is less firmly rooted in some European countries than it is in the USA. In Germany, the post-war government wanted to take steps to make certain that a holocaust would never happen again. Therefore, any publication or public speech that might appear to support the Nazi agenda is taken very seriously -and those who do so may be arrested and jailed.

Rockefeller was a Baptist -and a devout one, so I'm not sure how he figures into Granpa's theory of a bluff.

It is probably a good idea not to challenge Grandpa too much on this. On the other hand, it may cause you to wonder about some of his other beliefs, opinions and teachings. You've found out the truth for yourself -that's the important thing.

I hope this helps.

Answer 5

With respect to your grandfather.... I believe he is wrong.

I worked for a Polish Catholic, who was born after the war ended but her entire family had been placed in concentration camps... ( her mother, brother and two older sisters, her father was in the Polish army) .... Now while people say that the jews made the whole thing up .. it certainly does not explain why so many NON-JEWS have the same accounts.

incidently .. my boss's sister was not fond of jewish people( openly) and my boss said how her father had once said to her that THAT was the only thing Hitler got right but he should have finished the job.......

Now I don't write that out because I share the view .... (I MOST CERTAINLY DO NOT) .. but to say to you .. that these people would NOT support a Jewish conspiracy .. these people also suffered. These people were also in concentration camps. These people also lost family members .. some of whom just vanished.

SADLY .. as time goes on .. and the survivors all pass away ..the Deniers will gain the upper hand in the debate...

and that is something I hope never ever really happens .. we need not to forget so it can not happen again.

Answer 6

The main reason Holocaust denial was made illegal in Germany, was so that guilty persons could not escape punishment by denying their crimes. This law was introduced very soon after WW2 concluded and has remained ever since. In most other countries Holocaust denial is NOT illegal, proven by the fact that your grandfather is free to speak his mind on this subject.

It may interest him to know that in many parts of the world, Indian people are (quite unfairly) regarded as mercenary and cruel.

I do not believe this to be true, having a close friend of Indian descent who is a fine person, but it shows how these foolish stereotypes can be used to discriminate against a whole group of people.

Similarly, women are often depicted as foolish, superficial and of little value compared to men. I think you yourself can use this stereotype to assess whether your grandfather's views of jewish people can be entirely factual.

Naturally, you respect and have affection for your grandfather. However, even learned men can be in error, a situation which can come about for many reasons.

However, just because we love someone does not mean we have to agree with them in all things.

You deserve commendation for choosing to educate yourself instead of blindly treading the well worn path of prejudice.

Congratulations and best wishes :-)

Answer 7

Denial of Holocaust is seen as a lie and an insult to the victims and as anti-democratical propaganda, not as a scientific statement.Making wrong statements about other persons is illegal in most western countries.Denial alone will usually not get you in prison, if I remember correctly, only one person has ever been jailed for repeated denial.
Jews are not the richest people, in fact, many Israelis are indebted, and Israel is definitely not the richest country in the world.

Answer 8

Way too complicated to answer in a forum such as this suffice it to say people will beleive what they wish to believe irrehardless of the facts. Here in America people actually believe that Saddam Hussein plotted the 9/11 attacks and had an arsenal of nuclear weapons, then again they also believe Geo W won the 2000 Election.....

Anyone who doesn't accept Christ as their personal savior is open to attack in this World and very few will ever stand up for them.

Pax----------------------------

Answer 9

hi
According to me and what i read this is all i knew about Holocaust.
The Holocaust (from the Greek holókauston from holos "completely" and kaustos "burnt"), also known as Ha-Shoah (Hebrew:), Churben (Yiddish: ן), is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler.
Other groups were persecuted and killed by the regime, including the Roma, Soviet POWs, disabled people, gay men, Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholic Poles, and political prisoners.Many scholars do not include these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, defining it as the genocide of the Jews,or what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question." Taking into account all the victims of Nazi persecution, the death toll rises considerably: estimates generally place the total number of victims at nine to 11 million. The persecution and genocide were accomplished in stages. Legislation to remove the Jews from civil society was enacted years before the outbreak of World War II. Concentration camps were established in which inmates were used as slave labour until they died of exhaustion or disease. Where the Third Reich conquered new territory in eastern Europe, specialized units called Einsatzgruppen murdered Jews and political opponents in mass shootings. Jews and Roma were crammed into ghettos before being transported hundreds of miles by freight train to extermination camps where, if they survived the journey, the majority of them were killed in gas chambers. Every arm of Germany's bureaucracy was involved in the logistics of the mass murder, turning the country into what one Holocaust scholar has called "a genocidal nation."
hope this clear u.

Answer 10

Because it's still relatively recent. People fear if enough people deny it, then it could erode the historical facts, and in those european countires could lead to a rise in neo-nazism.