Do you think this was censuring Free Speech?

Question

This was the headline in my local paper yesterday.

A local couple were flying the flag upside-down (universal symbol for "distress") with two signs pinned to it, explaining that it was not disrespectful, that they were protesting the state of this country.

That is called "political dissent."

"Defiling the flag" would have been if, oh, say...there were people lined up waiting to pee on it.

"Defacing the flag" would have been, oh...if they'd smeared dog feces on it.

But putting small, well-written signs of explanation on it are in NO WAY defacing it.

And even if it WERE, that specific ordinance in North Carolina has not been brought up since the Vietnam War.

Please read the article, and pay close attention to the officer who "responded" to the complaint. HOW did he find out about the flag? WHERE is the flag now?

And my question to you is this:

Were these people arrested for POLITICAL DISSENT?

“ASHEVILLE – A couple who said they were protesting the state of the country by flying the U.S. flag upside down with signs pinned to it found themselves in jail following a scuffle with a deputy Wednesday morning.”

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770725118

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Please READ the entire article. Yes, I know it's hard, but you can do it.

It is not a foregone conclusion about WHY there was a "scuffle" - the two citizens say something quite different from what the officer says.

"censoring Free Speech!"

Thanks for correcting me
! I have impeachment/censuring on the brain.

TO MUSASHI: Au contraire, mon ami. I read every single word, which apparently YOU did not. And I also have the ability to use CRITICAL THINKING, which apparently YOU do not.

Did you read the part about there was some QUESTION as to where, how, and under WHAT circumstances the "officer" found out about the flag?

Did you read the part about the couple being WITHIN city limits, and a CITY policeman had ALREADY COME TO THE COUPLE'S house to check it out, and had seen NOTHING wrong?

This tells me the officer was buds with the guy in fatigues, they were having some brewskis getting really steamed about "them damn hippies" and went over on private property spoiling for a fight.

Issue a citation? FOR WHAT? Clear and plain as day nothing was amiss.

the officer had no RIGHT to "ask for identification" he had no business there to begin with.

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TO JOHN T: I absolutely believe the citizens over the "officer" after having lived here for 16 years and having had my own interactions with local law enforcement. Last summer I called and had an officer come out to my house because my neighbor was shooting off his gun on the very edge of his property (next to mine) which is REALLY close and loud.

In the county, it is against the law to discharge a firearm within 300 feet of a residence.

Know what the cop did?

Lectured me on the second amendment.

I told him I doubted that there was an American citizen alive who was not familiar with the second amendment.

I also told him that, "Yes, he has the right to own a gun. And *I* have the right to sit on my porch sipping ice tea without having my ear zinged off by a stray bullet."
The moral?
I have had experience with local law where THEY push their own agenda.

To chef.jnstwrt -- BOY, YOU SAID A MOUTHFUL THERE.

To Ervin: I respect your opinion. However, as I have already stated, because of my sixteen years of previous experience with local law, I have no doubt whatsoever that the "scuffle" was manufactured, shall we say? The officer had no business to be there in the first place. He is COUNTY, the couple lives in the CITY. There had ALREADY been an officer out to the couple's house - he had found NOTHING on which to base writing them a citation.

This officer went there with his OWN agenda. Trouble was GOING to happen.

There was a "scuffle" of questionable origin.

To BRUCE: Dear God. I really cannot bear to hear stuff like that. I'm very, very sorry.

JUST MAKE ME RULER FOR A DAY!! THAT'S ALL I ASK!

Answer 1

I won't go into detail as you already have done a remarkable job...It is a sad indication of what our police forces have become in North America..all over we are seeing officers acting above and well beyond the law and the mandate they are given and they are getting away with it..it is time these men were reined in and made to perform their duties as the police of the past did admirably..this smacks of the Hollywood version of the small town law enforcement dictatorship we only see as fantasy but the reality is that the large urban forces are turning into just that with a militaristic twist...and what happened with the Kuhns is not unusual..the story is always twisted in the officers report no matter how many witnesses there may to contradict them...my daughter and I were attacked by a Durham Regional in Ontario, off duty, and despite the sworn statement by 6, yes 6, independent witnesses and myself and my daughter, the officer was believed and is still out in the community to terrorize others..this same officer broke into a house and put a gun to a teens head, unarmed teen, and then did not arrest the teen but arrested the mother for protesting the breaking in...and in Toronto, 5, yes 5, officers beat a man to death....a 55 year old man, very frail...and they walked...and the New York man shot reaching for his wallet, or the man sodomized by the police in I believe NY... and what the LA police have done is beyond human comprehension...so it is not at all unusual what happened to the Kuhns... it is time you woke up America, a police state is not fun....support the Kuhns for they were only exercising the rights Americans are supposed to have.

Answer 2

The answer to your question is NO

Yes - it definately got out of hand - and two wrongs dont make it right - even if the federal gestapo sheriff overstepped his bounds

Yes - I said federal - and of course you probably wont agree with me - but the sheriff is the ONLY police force for the feds that is authorized in the constitution - thats why anytime the feds need something locally they ALWAYS get a local sheriff to go with them

The sheriff, according to the federal courts, have the right to demand identification - a while back - if i remember correctly - some guy out west spent time in jail for refusing to give his ID

No, we are not yet in a communist country - but we certainly are moving that way really quickly


Slamming the door on someones hand isnt the way to handle a situation either - yes - i know they were mad and I am sure the sheriff was as well since someone was questioning his authority - but it still wasnt right

So what do they do about it - well - first of all - they will need toprove that they dont fallunder the jurisdiction of the statues that were being presented - as freemen the government answers to us not the other way around - before ANYTHING can be done in court jurisdiction needs to be established so that woudl be the first line of defense - assuming, that is, that they know this fact

Second line of defense would be to prove duress - as sovereigns we have the right to defend ourselves an dour property - if they can prove these were under attack then the case will be dismissed

Third line of defense - prove the officer caused the entire problem - the government (sheriff) will need toprove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" the guilt of these two people - all they need to do is show reasonable doubt

As for the definitions in question - ALL law is allowed to define its words according to the way they want it to read - this mean that what you and Ithin the word means may not be the same as what the law describes it as - defiling might be something totally different then what is listed in the question here - the same with defacing - to see what it actually means you would need a copy of the definition section of the exact law in question

How long the law is on the books and NOT used is irrelevant - so long as its still a valid law it can be enforced within the confines of its jurisdiction by the appropriate authority

We would like to think they were arressted for political dissent but in all liklihood - if the situation didnt escalate - nothing would have happened - unfortunately you had anover -zealous egotistical sheriff up against two unsuspecting naieve people

To these people I can only say - ignorance of the law is no excuse - so dont stay ignorant - go find out the jurisdiction in question and defend thyself

Answer 3

The alleged scuffle sounds flimsy and it sounds like a fabricated event by the law enforcement officer. If the case that this couple faces is in fact about the flag, then it could be a challenge for the supreme court since the North Carolina law about the descecration of the flag inhibits the 1st amendment rights. Our Constitutional rights should trump the rights of a piece of cloth. But in this surreal day and age of the Bush administration and his basically burning the Constitution, one just never knows.
BTW, I do think cops are given way too much power in our country today. They are acting above the law just like this president is. It's very scarrey. This is becoming more and more of a police state and I think this story you have shared with us only proves this fact one more time.

Answer 4

I wouldn't call it censoring the Kuhn's free speech, but it did violate their right to protest peaceably...which is what they were doing.

Pinning a sign to a flag *might* be "defacing" it, but that would be the only thing of which they might be guilty.

The deputy had every right to stop by and ask about it, but he didn't need to issue them a citation and he certainly didn't need to break into their house to arrest them, especially without a warrant.

In conclusion, I suspect they were being harrassed for political dissent. With that recent Executive Order, they just might want to be a little careful.

We should ALL dissent this coming weekend to show our support and to show that in the United States the CITIZENS have the power.

Answer 5

Politics in Asheville don't really match the type of citizens the city has. That is one of the reasons I don't want to live there. I remember when the second Gulf War began and people were protesting in the streets they were treated like criminals by city officials and police.
Here in Lake Lure where I live it isn't much different, it is only a smaller town and we live a quieter existence. Most of our police officers live in Asheville actually and are extremely militant in their approach to our kindly, small lake town people. They dress like a S.W.A.T. team and treat every traffic stop like a high speed chase.
Since the majority of our police officers are ex-military I can only imagine what kind of scene this couple had to endure and then ultimately end up in jail.
I just hope this will end in a positive way somehow.
To actually answer your question, my belief is yes, that is why they are in jail.

Answer 6

They were well within their right to display the flag in such a fashion. They should have been in the right to shoot the officer breaking into their home as well! We are becoming a police state! Watch out everyone, another republican administration or two and we will be there! You can believe that!

Answer 7

My guess is that the law is unconstitutional and would not stand up to the Supreme Court, even our present court. (Alito is actually very big on free speech.)

They made things worse for themselves by not contacting a lawyer ahead of time to prepare for police interference.

Although the charge of desecrating the flag will likely be dropped, the scuffle with the cops will not be, nor should it be.

If you're going to take on "The Man" you need to be prepared. These two suburban, middle-aged hippies were not and as such didn't help their cause as much as they could have.

Answer 8

It is censorship. I would think that real conservatives would agree, not the far right - backer spittin' whiskey chuggin ones, but the true conservatives. When you are dealing with issues like this, though, it has nothing to do with political parties. There is a good chance the officers are democrats, considering where it took place. You are now getting in to regional aspects.

Answer 9

I know people who flew their flag upside down when Clinton was in office. They said things like "he isn't my president". It's free speech when republicans disagree with the president and treason when democrats do it.

For the record I don't agree with flying the flag upside down. It is a distress signal and should only be used in case of emergency. I instead fly a revolutionary war flag that says "Don't Tread on Me." I will not fly the American flag until we are free of King George.

Answer 10

A black-and-white example of a Republican neighbor who got pissed off and was talking to the "officer" down at the local redneck drinking hole.

I liked the part about the guy "in fatigues" coming up to the people's house to harrass them.

American citizens have the Constitutional right of political expression, which is CLEARLY what this couple were doing.

I hope you have written/called your local Sheriff's office? They should get an EARFUL about this. It is a DISGRACE.





AREN'T OUT SOLDIERS DYING IN IRAQ TO "SPREAD FREEDOM?" And yet we don't have it HERE?