Whenever I hear Beethoven's "Waldstein" Piano Sonata and his "Choral Fantasia" they have the same effect ...

Question

.. on me.
I don't own CD's/records etc. so I hear them when they come around on radio broadcasts ( the latter only too rarely as, far from being the "prototype" for Symphony 9 ,it is exactly right and the symphony a bit "bloated" (to me anyway!)).
So - technically (for those who might know and in layman's terms if that is not a contradiction in terms!) why do the "Waldstein" and "Choral Fantasia" do the same thing for me? - it has something to do with dramatic tension I know but are they similar technically? - I don't know anything about the nuts and bolts of music so maybe that is a wasted question - never mind - "I shall hear in Heaven" (allegedly).
Best wishes,
Joan.

Well F.Perdurabo (sp.?) if you still are on this is the "Eroica" symphony also of the same period (I suppose I could look it up) because for me that is*the* Symphony.

Well "vive..." indeed,Glinzek - I couldn't disagree more!
Maybe we could discuss further? - the fantasia "bloated" and the choral theme a "sketch"? really!!!! - Well "vive... etc" !!!!
P.S. I'm feeling a *lot* more at home here than in the parenting section - Beethoven would probably have felt the same!

next day - well now the Violin Concerto has come on the radio - that really *is* a "journey ",Glinzek and has some of the elements (to me) the other two pieces I mention too.

Answer 1

It's certainly not as unlikely as it may seem at face value to experience similarities (beyond those of key) in the Waldstein and the Choral Fantasia. First of all, though the higher opus number ranking for the Fantasia and its associations with the Ninth (1818-1823) tend to place it as being 'later' in the public's historical imagination, it actually dates from 1808 as compared with the Waldstein's 1804. As a consequence, the piano writing of the Fantasia shows similar compact muscularity to that which so characterises the Waldstein, as well as the equally contemporary Triple Concerto op.56 in the same key again.

The Fantasia has always enjoyed very mixed critical fortunes. This is in part due to ill-rehearsed, under-cast performances as anything else. The technical demands on the piano soloist in the Fantasia are greater than in any of the concertos, bar none, be it for a much less extended time span. For the form, on the other hand, to work as intended, it demands both a soloist and a conductor capable of the tightest of co-operative grips on a tentatively cohesive structure and a reciprocal capacity for self-effacement of one in favour of the other and vice versa. Notwithstanding a superb, thumpingly demanding 3-page, quasi-extemporised fantasia for piano solo to open with, it has to be delivered straight as a rod, without self-indulgence, or the orchestral bridge with which it has seamlessly to connect will fail, and two unrelated half-works will result, and obvious incoherence. Likewise, orchestral soloists in the variations, accompanied by the soloist-as-servant, cannot go off on obbligato flights of imagination in turn, or the latter's gradual resumption of overt soloist supremacy will sound overbearing and misplaced. It's a bit of a tricky quadrille that all parties have to agree to dance. The work ultimately falls down not on its musical qualities but on the deplorably banal nature of its text that Beethoven culled from his song "Seufzer eines Ungeliebten" (Sighs of an Unloved One -- you can see a mile off that this spells *trouble* from the outset! ), specifically the second part, "Gegenliebe" (lit. Reciprocated Love). In performances I have participated in, where the choral soloists were placed 'oratorio fashion' in pairs either side of me and the conductor, we had to do an advance deal not to look each other in the eye during the vocal soloists' exposition of the theme, or we'd inevitably all corpse in unstoppable giggles at the nature of the pious, quasi-elevated drivel that we were helping to push out into the world. This becomes Beethoven's problem too: in stark contrast with the Ninth, there's very little more he can do with this utterly one-dimensional text material than to repeat it in ever more (in)tense, more densely scored iterations, interspersed with ever more muscular interjections from the soloist. Done straight, unfussed, it can work superbly, but given 'the treatment', trying to 'make it work', it topples over like a top-heavy blancmange.

It's instructive to compare op.80 with Mozart's equally curious excursion into unusual combinations in his 'Ch'io mi sciordi di te' dramatic scena for soprano, solo piano and orchestra, K505. Though probably likewise an example perhaps best not emulated, it positively 'plays itself' by comparison, supported by a coherent, colourful dramatic text as much as anything else.

Answer 2

I agree about the 9th symphony, as commonly played, sounding bloated. My description would be aimless for much of its length, especially in the string writing.

However, all is not lost. I have a recording of the symphonies by the Hanover Band on original instruments (NI 5144/8)which makes all clear. First, the texture of the sound is more suited to the music. Next, all can now be revealed: the string writing in the standard version is truly a mess. Misprints and publishers' ****-ups all over the place. No wonder I felt this wasn't the Beethoven I admire elsewhere - it wasn't him at all!

Editing to get back to as near as possible to what Beethoven actually wrote means that the symphony as played on this disc was a revelation. If you don't own CDs, try to hear this recording at a friend's place.

Enjoy!

Answer 3

The Waldstein sonata, certainly one of Beethoven's most recognizable, is wonderful because it's in C major and it has an incredible, rolling quality, like riding down a dusty road in a horse drawn carriage going as fast as the horses can run - then it breaks into the most beautiful second theme in the first movement. After a brief slow movement that takes the energy way down. The final movement is very recognizable and is very intense and melodic.

I can't explain exactly why these two pieces affect you the way they do. Music is one of those indescribable things. However both pieces are at the end of his "middle period" which is also considered his heroic period. The pieces tend to be powerful and driven.

I'm a huge Beethoven freak. It's good to know people are listening to him.

FP

Answer 4

Now, see? This is an excellent example of how different music affects people differently. I have always felt the Waldstein to be one of the B's tightest works, whereas the Choral Fantasy has always struck me as bloated and amorphus. It goes nowhere. The 9th is a true journey, whereas the Fantasy seems to be grounded in its own redundancy. The Choral tune seems to me like Beethovens sketch of the Ode to Joy, which he finally got right in the 9th.

Oh well! Vive le difference!

Answer 5

What music does for people depends entirely how spiritually in tune they may be when listening.

Whilst I write this, Classic FM is currently playing the Haydn Creation, sung in German. I've done this one as a soloist, in English and German and still get goose-bumps.

Another piece that hits me is Vaughan Williams Fantasia on a theme of Thomas tallis.

For me, it's not always about dramatic tension, rather the way my spirit is lifted when I hear timeless music.

Many say that a knowledge of music is essential - indeed it often is - not totally true, as the spirit is always lifted by good music.

Beethoven was a student of Haydn; it is true that composers look to their mentors for inspiration, but they also become introverted and show great moments of introspection when writing new stuff - they often visit established works for central themes.

Hope this helps.

Answer 6

I do so agree with you. My favourite composer is Mozart but I really think the Waldstein is a work of genius. I absolutely love it and can play it again and again. To me, Beethoven's symphonies are ok but overrated. His piano music, particularly the Waldstein and the Appassionata is sublime.

Answer 7

nice thoughts here! beethovens compositional processes tended to be fairly unconventional at times and he often wrote pieces concurrently adding or discarding ideas as he went along.Many pieces have the same effect as they are quite often made of each other.you will like the Andante Favori if you like the Waldstein. Check ou op.110 thats my favourite....

Answer 8

i hope you enjoy it in heaven. xxx