Is it irresponsible to tell newbies that bikes are steered with "weight shifting" instead of counter steering?

Question

Personally I find these threads and the "advice" from people who have been "riding 20 years" to be scary.

Counter steering is the only way to steer a motorcycle. Go talk to racers, cops, or anyone else who rides professionally, and tell them that pushing the bars makes for "wide turns" or "wobbles" and that "weigh shifting" is how to turn a bike fast at high speed, and enjoy being laughed at.

How are you guys doing simple things like changing lanes quickly or swerving around road debris? Heck, if weight shifting is what steers a motorcycle, why even touch the handlebars while you're going fast downhill through mountain passes? Just put the bike in neutral and weight shift your way through a hairpin.

Answer 1

It is absolutely irresponsible. The only way you can turn at normal speeds is with countersteering.

Answer 2

Its completely irresponsible to tell people that weight shifting is what turns a bike.

Countersteering is what turns a bike. This is physics not opinion.

It scares me that people who say they've been riding a long time just don't get it. Shifting weight does not turn a bike!

Leaning with the motorcycle and leaning off the motorcycle effectivly lower the center of gravity of the rider and the motorcycle. The lower the center of gravity, the less lean you need to take a turn and the more traction you will have while taking the turn. If you were at a high speed and turned the bike in one way and leaned the other you'd probably end up on the ground (don't try this). At low speed it works but thats because at very low speeds you don't countersteer.

Check out the link. Its an interesting experiment that proves countersteering.

Answer 3

You can turn the bike by weight shifting.

If you take your hands off the bars and lean the bike to one side, it will turn in that direction but very sluggishly (hoo boy, I am visualising beginning riders doing all these weird experiments, anyways...)

The reason that the bike turns sluggishly is because the weight of the front fork, front wheel etc is ahead of the steering axis. So, as you force the bike to lean left, the inertial weight of the fork initially makes the front forks turn to the right. Then, the bike overcomes the inertial effect and begins turning to the left.

Many people confuse countersteering with counterpressure When you push on the left handgrip, that is all you do. The counterpressure does NOT make the forks turn to the right. Gyroscopic reaction causes the bike to instantly lean to the left.

for those who think I am making things up:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/gyroscope1.htm

This website offers an explanation of how the gyroscope works. There may be too many big words for some of you however.

BTW I started riding motorbikes 32 years ago. My first bike was an Artic Cat (the sled company). What have I got to show for it? A bad back and no future.

Answer 4

Yes it is! Just do a little test. Drive at a speed under 20 MPH and notice that when you turn you turn wheel to the left you go to the left. Now get on the highway and turn your wheel to the left. Guess what, you'll go to the right. That is counter steering. Learn to steer your motorcycle. Because in an emergency situation. Where you have to react quickly. And you haven't had enough experience. To have yourself programed to counter steer. You may hit what you are trying to miss. Because in your mind, you have always turned right, to go right. At speeds above 30 MPH . When you lean to the left, your left hand goes forward and your right hand pulls back. Thus turning the wheel to the right ,which makes you go left , the direction you are leaning. That is why some people think that leaning is the way . That works fine in normal driving situation. But in an emergency it could get you hurt, That is why it is so important to get counter steering programed in your mind. The good thing is, that all you have to do is always steer you motorcycle to get this in your subconscious where it becomes automatic.There are a number of things you can do to become a better rider. But if you don't get the counter steering down. Emergency situations just won't have the same outcome. I have been riding most all makes and models of motorcycles including dirt bikes for over 40 years. Have I been down yes. Have I been hurt, very minor. Worst injury burning my leg , while looking in the mirror and combing my hair. And yes I had shorts on. Be safe and have fun!

Answer 5

You may have noticed I don't give riding advice to newbies.
I taught myself, and have not had the benefit of a follow-up class. I've been riding for 18 years now, and I never heard or saw the term used in reference to motorcycles until last year. I understand it, because I was already doing it. Many have said "you steer this way", but none are completely correct. Steering a motorcycle is done by a combination of methods. I lean, and it does NOT produce countersteer on it's own. I countersteer. I also shift weight. A habit of mine is to shift my weight so it stays centered (body upright) as I lean the motorcycle. Another thing that may be called "weight shifting" but has the effect of "reverse counter steering" is when I use my highway pegs. Press right foot down and forward, bike turns right. Left foot, left turn.

Now, to my real point: It is totally irresponsible for any to say "you countersteer" and not say anything else! Especially an MSF instructor!!!

There are as many ways to ride a motorcycle as there are to tie your shoes. Be responsible - tie your own shoes.

Answer 6

You read like an idiot.
Counter steering is a PART of steering, it is not All of steering.
Because there are a number of elements , turning of the bars ,leaning, shifting of body weight all happening in varying degrees, at the same time, it is hard to put into words.
Any one that has some experience riding understands at least to some degree how it all works.
Your belief that counter steering is all there is makes you a danger to yourself and others.
Do yourself and those around you a favor and DON'T RIDE TOO CLOSE TO ANYONE!. Jeeze, what a fool you are.

Answer 7

Absolutely. The only question about counter steering is how good you are at it, early on it is very difficult at slower speeds, with practice you get better. Pushing the bars is really only effective at speeds lower than you can effectively counter steer, and weight shifting is done in addition to, rather than instead of counter steering. There is a lot of BS out there about riding, if you look at countries (like the UK) where motorcycling is taken a lot more seriously than here in the US you don't find these kind of arguments.

Lets get serious about riding in the US - graduated standards to recognize those that know what they are doing - insurance breaks, clubs and courses that can help you really develop your skills.

Answer 8

Counter steer.........VS/ weight shift?? Real easy to prove that counter steer is the only way a bike turns above + or - , 18 mph. OK, sense you cant afford to weld your bars straight, so as the bike can not be turned. Do the next best thing...........Take a pair of roller skates, or a skate board and weld the wheels straight forward and LEAN or put your weight to one side and see if you turn. you won't......Better yet take a board maybe 6 ft long, screw a front and rear wheel
on the board so as the wheels cant turn left or right. Push the board foreword and lean the board as far as you want to represent a rider putting all his weight to one side as you would do on ANY motorcycle. You will find that you can lean it as far as you want and it WONT turn left or right.......... I KNOW
some of you are going to say you lean YOUR bike and transfer weight and it turns , so that should prove leaning, and weight transfer is turning your bike. .........WRONG, what is happening is your weight and lean is AUTOMATICLY putting the FRONT TIRE into a COUNTERSTEER with out YOU realizing it. NOW if you lean, AND, push on the handle bar you will FORCE the bike in to a greater counter steer and it will TURN as fast, or as much as you want. A HARD FORCED PUSH on the bar,(along with lean or weight shift) is the only way to create an (immediate) emergency maneuver to AVOID a rear ender, a tire on the highway, etc........yes weight shift and lean will assist turning........BUT, but without counter steer, your bike is not going to steer!
Here is the best DVD in the world....newbe to 60 years riding experence. www.ridelikeapro.com

Answer 9

I totally agree, there is no way to ride my YZF-R1 at any speed above 40km/h without counter steering, and almost did crash a motorbike as a learner by trying to use my weght to turn.

Anybody who thinks that you can turn by leaning is deluding themselves, they are in effect counter steering by putting there weight on the opposite side of the handle bars.

Answer 10

I been thinking about this issue for quite a while. My experience is that 90% of the turn is leaning the bike.
The tighter the turn, the farther I lean.
I can zig-zag back and forth between the stripes on the roadway with my Harley at 55MPH by leaning the bike back and forth.....I can't remember having to counter-steer.
Maybe I'm doing it with out realizing this.

Answer 11

Yes and no. You really need both for proper cornering (i.e. you lean with the bike while using counter steering). Not leaning leaves really vulnerable for a high side flip, while leaning and not counter steering leaves you extremely vulnerable to losing the bike out from underneath you.