What can feminists do to convince others that they are not man-haters?

Question

Why don't non-man-hating feminists distance themselves from the man-haters?

Why do they silently accept these people as members of the movement rather than rejecting them?

Why don't they speak out against their hateful ideology (if they truly disagree) as they do so on other issues? Unless they actually agree with them, silently.

IF most feminists truly do *not* hate men, why don't they do something to distance themselves from feminists who do?

d maku

As long as man-haters are welcome, feminism cannot honestly claim to hate discrimination and promote equality.

Consider a public service announcement from the (pick your hate group) about not drinking and driving.

The hateful ideology of the messenger overshadows any positive message.

Feminism is supposed to oppose discrimination on any basis, but interestingly tolerates it toward men only.

KA1227:

"Birds of a feather flock together." When feminists tolerate hate amongst their ranks, it leads observers to logically conclude that that is the view of the group since feminists are not shy about stating what they *don't* agree with.

So, why the silence on this issue?

What other conclusion can be reached than that they agree?

Wendy G:

Hey, glad to have you back!

"We do"?

Huh, when, where? Sorry, but I ain't heard it.

KA1227:

There are many adolescent (summer vacation) trolls baiting females here, who no one takes seriously. Their woman-hating rants are reprehensible, but are largely a product of immature children or at least trolls.

However, the man-hating statements made here (for all of the months I’ve been here) and elsewhere by the self-described feminists are products of adults, some of them middle-aged. And, when these mature, serious, visceral man hating rants have been written, the man-haters have been consistently supported and defended as part of the local feminist “sisterhood.” I have been in awe of this. (I can give examples here, but I’d prefer not to.)

I am not sure if this based on latent agreement, intimidation, or loss of sensitivity toward man-hate. Regardless, it further reinforces the man-hating perception that feminism has. And reputations are seldom unearned.

EDIT:

“Sucked in?” KA1227, I am not “with or against” anyone, just an observer. I have just observed this

KA1227:

Sorry, rant out of characters above.

I have just observed this phenomenon that many feminists, for whatever reason, can’t seem to or don’t want to see.

Does feminism desensitize adherents to hate speech toward men? Does what is considered hatred of men to everyone else just sound like female frustration or simply a valid opinion to feminists?

As long as feminists support (knowingly or unknowingly) hatred of men by other “feminists”, the movement will continue to have the reputation. Again, reputations are seldom unearned.

Wendy G:

You state that "Feminism is not an all-encompassing ideology in which everyone that calls themselves feminists believes the same thing."

Does feminism have no underlying *principles* that precludes hatred of men? It certainly fights against hate and discrimination of women. Why is hatred of men allowable?

So, feminism in principle does not allow you to say, "hey, if you hate men, you are not a *true feminist*, that's against the rules (or at least the principles)?”

What kind of movement allows for hatred of half the population as just a diverse viewpoint? Is that not fundamentally flawed where a movement allows for hatred and no one can say that it is wrong?

This is an eye opener.

tehabwa

Feminists are activists who are supposed to stand for something, namely promotion of fairness and equality, etc.

So, when a teenage boy or adult troll not proclaiming connection with any movement makes a statement, it's just him or her.

However, when an adult person who publicly identifies as a feminist makes a statement, it is intended to represent her thinking as a feminist. When that thinking demonstrates a hatred of men, it suggests to others that that thinking is compatible with feminism.

When other feminists are silent in the face of these statements, it reinforces that perception.

The fact that you "very rarely" hear such hate-speech when others do hear it suggests an absence of sensitivity, like a callous or hearing loss.

KA1227:

I did not state that all feminists hate men. I only pointed out that feminism has that reputation, asking what feminists can do to change that perception.

To illustrate, if were a member of the Lion’s Club and publicly stated hatred of Rotary Club members, with other Lion’s club members present who all say nothing, what will the Rotary Club members reasonably conclude about the lot of us (at least the ones in the room)? That we all agree.

Why did no Lion's Club members dispute or correct the Rotary Club hating Lion’s Club member? Is the silence based on apathy (I don’t particularly agree but also don’t find their hate offensive), cowardice (I am intimidated), or agreement?

Again, I am merely pointing out that feminism has acquired a negative reputation and asked what can be done, if it is not accurate.

What I am hearing is, “nothing.” If I were part of a movement, doing nothing would not be an acceptable solution to ridding my group of such a bad reputation.

Wendy G:

I have not heard much criticism of the extreme hate coming from professed feminists. Rather, I have seen (read) some of these individuals defended and supported, right here.

So, when positive statements are made about men (after the silence in the face of the man-hate speech), they sound somewhat hard to believe as genuine.

Your analogy is not unclear.

However, most “Christians” are loathe to publicly state that professed Christians from other sects are NOT true Christians. If professed Christians (or Muslims) do things in the name of their religion that are wrong or hateful, remaining silent represents either cowardice, apathy, or agreement, not dissent.

Regardless, a lack of open and vocal rejection gives the *impression* (whether true or not) that they don’t reject it.

More of same generally yields the same results. I recommend a different strategy.

KA1227:

I stand by my question. No one else was confused by it. Also, am not *telling* you what to do. In fact, the question allows for other proposed solutions. I only proposed one (to me) very obvious solution.

I am not a feminist, but if I were it would work to change the perception by working to “convince” others that feminism and hatred of men (or whomever) is not compatible.

An irony here is that one of the answerers as to what feminists can do to convince other that they are not man-haters is a prime example of a feminist that has articulated her abhorrence for males repeatedly.

But, now she has deleted her answer. Not sure why she bothered to answer my question since she has blocked me and her hate is apparently so natively ingrained that she herself does not even recognize or acknowledge it.

Answer 1

I don't mean to be too harsh but it's seriously time for you to wake up. A few people have asked how the feminist movement could be saved. Most feminists think anyone who thinks something is wrong with the movement is a fool/idiot, they said it in an old question. How do you help something that doesn't want to be helped? They call feminists who call themselves feminists yet critique the movement in order to ameliorate it ''faux feminists'' or ''anti-feminists''. Warren Farrel left N.O.W for a reason. What's the reason? N.O.W didn't care how their decisions impacted men. They can't take criticism constructively (majority not all). Why do they work with radical feminists? Well a few, like ifeminists, reject radicals. Most think that by working with misandrists and radicals they can bring the movement to a new level.

Answer 2

I think a few posters are missing the point.

The reason why feminists should (supposedly) care about their image is because the young women (and men) of today don't generally like feminism.

Why? Because they associate it with man-hating, lesbianism, poor hygiene, and all manners of negative stereotypical characteristics.

If feminists don't particularly care about the future generations and don't want them to believe in the equality of men and women, I can understand that, but I was under the assumption that feminists cared about the future; some have even said that feminism is more necessary now than it has ever been.

The opinions don't necessarily matter, but the adherents (for lack of a better term in this case) do. You can't really have a feminist movement without feminists, right? The point is that if you alienate potential feminists the movement will die out from lack of followers.

Now, to answer the question more directly: They can explain their intentions in FAQs (assuming they have websites). This could include boldly stating something like "Feminism is NOT about hating men- in fact, feminism has absolutely nothing to do with hating men- it merely refers to the equality of the sexes. We will tolerate neither the hatred of women (misogyny) nor the hatred of men (misandry) on this board."

Or something similar. I'm not sure feminists know how quickly men will jump on the bandwagon if they are fed statements like that with just a slight measure of sincerity behind them.

Seriously. I know from experience. Make a good first impression and we'll give you lots of support and leeway.

Answer 3

I'm including a link to a hypothosis and a poll regarding how people perceive the term "feminist". I think you might find it informative.
No, not all feminists are man-haters. I don't know if there should be a separate "movement" per se for non man hating feminists. Would we be called something else other than feminists? Since the term has such negative conotations (we are all man hating, fat, sloppy, ugly, lesbians) then perhaps we should come up with something new to describe promoting the rights of women.

Answer 4

I agree, but at the same time... Would the media really want to publish facts like that? I mean, look at terrorism. It has unfortunately given a bad name to all muslims. I don't know in America, but in France, I've never heard of a petition by muslims to condemn those acts. I'm sure most of them condemn those acts, but I've never heard of such things happening. I personally don't need them to do it, but given the latent racism in France, I think it would have been a good thing for people to hear about muslims taking a stand against it. Same for feminists against extreme feminists.

Answer 5

Well, Christina Hoff-Sommers is not a man-hater. In fact, she wrote a book called "The War on Boys", which looked at ways to rectify the situation. What happened? She gets called a "faux feminist" or an "anti-feminist", when neither is accurate.

That's not going to stop me, though. I get very annoyed at the current portrayal of men as rapists-in-waiting, and/or completely unimportant as parents, and I always try to step in and express my own thoughts when I hear these views brought up by other feminists.

Answer 6

You know who the haters are. The problem does not lie with feminism, but rather with people who mistakenly assume that a few outspoken radicals speak for ALL feminists. Just as in politics, there will be people who identify as Republican or Democrat and still retain their own (opposing) opinions on some of the issues. So it is with feminism. I agree with most of the principles of feminism, so I call myself a feminist.
If you assume that I hate men because I accept the label feminist, that's a problem with YOUR perception. There has certainly been enough education in this forum to demonstrate that not ALL feminists agree on every single point, and that hating men is not a pre-requisite for being a feminist.

I see this as another example of all or nothing thinking causing a world of trouble.

EDIT: Steve, I hate to see you getting sucked into the "If you're not with us, you're against us" mindset. I thought you were smarter than that.

EDIT2: When I see a feminist hating on men, I think “She’s someone who hates men.” I do NOT jump to the conclusion that ALL feminists hate men, or that the movement promotes this idea. Why do non-feminists jump to the wrong conclusion so easily?

You wrote to tehabwa :
“when an adult person who publicly identifies as a feminist makes a statement, it is intended to represent her thinking as a feminist.”
I don’t think it is fair to make that leap. When a person makes a statement, her words reflect her own thoughts, not those of a group, unless she is an official spokesperson of the group. And as we have seen discussed here, even then, you really cannot assume she speaks for everyone. The beauty of feminism is that we each get to be individual human beings with our own independent thoughts.

You wrote:
“As long as feminists support (knowingly or unknowingly) hatred of men by other “feminists”, the movement will continue to have the reputation.”
How does one unknowingly support anything? It is your ASSUMPTION that one person supports another, and your assumption is based on silence. Again, not a fair leap in logic to make. Look at what tehabwa said about the Oklahoma City bombing.

You have made a lot of assumptions and it has led you to inaccurate conclusions.

As for your “with us, against us” position, if YOU aren’t on any “side” then why are you so quick to assign others to a side? That’s not really fair either, is it?

EDIT3: After all that, it seems you simply made an unfortunate choice of words when you used the word "convince" in your question. If your question had read : What can be done to change the perception that feminists are man-haters?" It would have saved us a lot of time.
See, I don't like being told what to do nor do I like being cornered by unattractive choices. You basically said that moderate feminists should stand up and publicly denounce other feminists because they hate men, and if we don't you will assume that we condone the hate. You gave us very narrow options. Now, if you were put in that position, would you do as you're told or argue for more options? I selected the latter.

If you truly want to explore ways to change the perception of feminists today, it might be wise to start with a new question.

Answer 7

Lead by example and not hate men. We have demonstrated on the forum our method of distancing themselves from those who admit to hating men (like the flower).

Answer 8

i do, but as a former man-hater, I feel that it is part of being a responsible feminist to try and talk them out of it. I have been where they are and if they are truly man haters, its ususally because they have been through and seen some things that no person should have to deal with alone. plus, if you can bring them back from it, they generally have a more well rounded perspective to bring to the table once their issues are dealt with.

one point i would like to make though, most of the women on here have an issue with certain behaviors that are exhibited by mainly men, and thats what they are mad at. not men as a group, but people who act like assholes. you need to know the distinction. it can reduce a lot of the vitriol around here.

Answer 9

Uh, anyone who can't tell the difference between:

All humans are human (including women).

and

All men are sub-human scum.

are not capable of understanding, well, much of anything.

There's no "club" we can kick man-haters out of.

Anyone call call themselves a feminist and then say anything they want.

On the (REALLY RARE) occasions I see male-bashing, I do respond in defense of the men-folk.

However, most people who claim to see male-hating everyone must either go in search of it, or simply read into everything they see and hear an anti-male bent that isn't there.

I rarely see it anywhere (and not nearly as often as women-bashing.)

Spend some time on this website, for example, and you'll see 10 or more "women should be slaves to men" to every "all men are scum" posts.

What _I_ suspect is what most anti-feminists call male bashing is simply women saying they won't be slaves to men any more.

NOT the same thing.

As I say, I do speak out, when I see it.

But there's nothing else I can do to prevent men-bashers from bashing, just as no one can shut up the women-haters.

If you have some specific action you think I should be taking, do let me know.

Also, if there's some epidemic of male-hating I'm unaware of, let me know that, too.

But to accuse everyone (including men) who understand that women are human of hating men is grossly unfair.

Edit: Just as I do not assume all men are sexist until they PROVE to me they aren't, you should not require every feminist to PROVE to you they don't hate men.

Do you need to prove that you didn't bomb Oklahoma City, just because a male did?

Didn't think so.

Answer 10

Fundamentalists exist and proselytize in every idealogical arena. So don't lump feminism loving ladies in one pool.

Ya baby, I'm a feminist, but I love men too. Rippling muscles with beads of sweat make me weak in the knees. Manly Men are soo soooooo sexy! Why don't all the hot Manly Men start a movement?! WoW!!! I wanna see!!


EDIT: ARGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! You still fail to see the point! Your question is redundant yes redundant in so many ways!! Did my post do nothing to open your eyes? I love men. I love people. I want people to be able to go after their dreams and not have their gender count against them. Case and point, I was in the hospital a few months ago. My IV came out and I bled everywhere. I was asleep and unaware so it looked like a B-rated horror movie. My mouth fell open when they sent a male nurse assistant in to change me (and yes I was unable to get up or change myself or anything). At first I protested. Then I waited. And waited. I finally said send him in. He came back to tend to me and didn't seem put off by my attitude at all. He was from Africa and had a beautiful sing song accent that set me at ease. I realized after I lay there clean and dry that I didn't want him to help me because he was a man, and a 'not a real nurse'. This guy wound up being my buddy, and after getting to know him found out he was going through med school and trying to support his family back in Africa. He would come in anytime they knew the morphine wasn't working on the pain and just talk to me. It made a very valid point in my own head that gender should not play a role! Even though I was cautious at first, it only reiterated what I already believed. Men are just as capable of being thoughtful and nurturing as women are. You just have to go to Africa to get one...j/k!

Please don't lump all feminists into one pot. I like pot too. lol.... I will be the first one to speak out about any injustice regardless of sex, race, disability or anything. But, if you actually expect a movement to blow itself up because of a few bad apples, then perhaps you should be directing all this effort to the White House!

Really can't you find something more productive to concentrate on?

And I've seen references several times to trolling here and I feel I personally need to clear something up. I'm not positive what a troll is (other than the ugly short guy under the bridge that won't let you cross w/o something). I do not stick with one group, sorry guys. I'm a player. I like to move around on the net as much as possible. If I see something that peaks my interest I will stop and play awhile. I'm not here to 'make friends' or form a 'sister hood', or even an online community of friends. My real life is full and I have no need for that. I never have understood why these online community groups get so possesive of their forum(s). Who gives a f---. Its not 'real' anyway people. No one is barging in and trying to take over your 'group'. Get over yourselves. Yes, I am a feminist, and yes, everything I have said here is true. But because I'm not on here with this particular group every day for like the past 2 years I have no valuable or even interesting opinion to offer? Lol! Sorry, just can't help but to laugh. It seems so silly to me. If you all really believe in liberation itself it seems a 'troll' wouldn't really bother you. (I may be short but I'm not ugly and I have NO warts!)